Maybe if the devs stopped focusing on pushing graphics at the"OOOH SHIIINY" gamers they could improve the actual world size. Maybe they should focus on what's important to a good RPG- story, gameplay, scope of the world, variety in every facet of the world (plants, animals, monsters, npcs, etc.)

There's a point at which continually pushing graphics causes these things to suffer.

If they want to push the graphics like they have been with TES 4 & 5 they should just market to PC if they were really being honest with their audience. Problem is they can't do that & still make money. Time to choose between a great RPG & ridiculously good graphics. Personally, I don't need the game to be photorealistic to enjoy it & have fun.

What game have you been following? Skyrim's graphics really aren't that good.

Since I've not been around long, I'm not 100% on this. But didn't BGS say that it was relatively hard to put Levitation in Oblivion, especially since they weren't happy with it in Morrowind?

They're pretty damn good for the 360...

I think the real deciding factor was the closed cities in Oblivion. They would probably change it from Morrowind's levitation though because so many people misused it. They just need to http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1162427-npcs-and-limited-levitation/.

Probably the same situation here :shrug: And like someone said earlier, it mmight make the mountains pointless. One spell I would like back though, is sound - that was cool

Skyrims graphics are amazing, no question. Think about it, too, Skyrim still sounds pretty damned cool, it has a lot of features that we've never seen before and have been wanting. The world size is actually quite reasonable. I thought about it last night, scale-wise, Skyrim is bigger than Oblivion. Especially when you factor in the mountains.

If they aren't that good why is the world scale squished like in Oblivion?
Why then are the Mountain just large hills with visual gimmickry to make them appear larger?
Why are there STILL loading walls?
Why would Levitation have to be cut to preserve the illusion of full size mountains?

OH, because the graphics aren't very good. I forgot. My bad... :facepalm:

I'm sorry, I didn't realise you'd played the game.

Maybe before making such an original post, you could listen to the related interviews, maybe read some articles. Nah, don't worry about it. I like that happy-go-lucky style you exude.

I think everyone is forgetting about the more important spells here... "Jump" and "Slowfall"

Jump is probably nixed now due to closed cities, and probably slowfall too. They won't want you slowfalling off a mountain into the top of the city.
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I just thought of something. couldn't they make it so you can load the city through the top. Just an invisible "barrier" that keeps going straight up from the wall, and once you pass this barrier it loads the city?

why isn't this a possibility?

So... You want the graphics to be even worse?
The consoles can't handle it. And decent graphics are needed for all the "Oooh shiny" people. They earn more money that way. Deal with it.
I'm sure Bethesda are doing the best they can, but the current generation of consoles are too limited. Unless you want to play a game divided on several discs.
Anyway this is not what this thread is about. So I'll just stop here.

Both of those spells being key components to my making my Arcane Assassin. So yeah, if they're nixed then there goes my preorder.

I never implied that Bethesda invented the mountains of Skyrim with the sole purpose of making the world feel bigger. It is just a natural consequence of Skyrim being so mountainous in comparison with Oblivion that makes the world feel bigger despite actually being similar in size. Bethesda can make this effect even more pronounced with the design choices that they implement in relation to how these mountains are navigated. Are they just a simple "up and over affair" or will there be a significant amount of pathfinding or trailblazing involved. Just because mountains that exist naturally don't have a "purpose", that doesn't mean that they can't serve a purpose if they are used in a certain way to achieve certain ends.

A rock was just a rock until some bright individual in the 1970's realized that people were crazy enough to give them to their children as pets.

My quetion is this- if BGS can't implement magic into the game without amputating Magic at the knees, why not wait til the next console cycle to put out Skyrim & continue with the Fallout series in the meantime?
So far I've heard about a lot more features being cut than added in terms of gameplay. This is yet another.

If a game has truly open world IMO it means that you can go anywhere you want in that game, or you can at least try. When developers are designing the open world they must bear in mind that they can not create any areas that the player isn't meant access. By this I mean that the developers can't use any artificial physical boundaries (like walls or mountains) that the player isn't meant to go over.

Now when you have a land that you are free to explore, and you know that there are some hidden areas for you to find, its nice to know that "if you see it, then there can be something." For example in Morrowind, cause of the fact that there is levitation, you can assume that you can explore all the areas you can see and there are no boundaries. But in Oblivion you get the feeling that "I'm not meant to be there and thus I gain nothing by exploring that place" when you see a steep mountain or a city wall. You go into a cave, look at the roof and wonder "could there be something to explore and to find?" In Morrowind there was something to explore and to find, but in Oblivion you think "Im not meant to go there, thus there is nothing to find."

So, its OK to use mountains as mountains, but the problem arises when the developer uses the mountains as boundaries that you aren't meant to go over in an open world game. Its like the developer is bluffing and thinking that the player won't call their bluff.

This way thinking code2501 was correct with the metaphor. If you treat mountains just as mountains, then there is no way to justify the absence of levitation with them. But if you think that mountains are not just mountains but actually boundaries that the player isn't meant to go over, then of course it leads to the game design fact that the player must be restricted in a way that he/she can not break these boundaries.

If you are making an open world game you can't limit the player too much or it won't be so open anymore.

In my opinion, levitation and the world design it leads to isn't a necessity. But this means that the absence of levitation must be compensated with other features that can not be implemented otherwise. With Oblivion it felt that levitation was taken out just to cut corners and not because there was something to gain by designing the world more 2D and restricted. With Skyrim it might be that they are really going to use the benefits. My point is that if you take levitation out, then you must make it worthwhile for the player also. Hoping for best, fearing the worst.

Well it's much too late for that. and have a feeling Next-gen isn't gonna come out for Xbox or Playstation till at least 2014. I'd rather get a TES now, and then get another one a few years in to the next gen cycle anyway (which IMO will make it much better than being a launch title)

Skyrim is kind of a simple place.I don't mind there being no levitate, jump, or slowfall THAT much. but if we go to summerset isles, Elsweyr, or even valenwood i feel like these kinds of spells would be more necessary, and fit the setting more.

GUYS I just discovered how you can still have levitate.....what if when you touch the "roof" of the city.....it takes you into a loading screen witch will take you to 1 out of few pre determined points in town


so yuo can still have levitate and the game wont be bugged

Basically, Skyrim will cater to Warrior types. They say they're getting rid of classes, but from what I've seen that's patently false. The names won't be there anymore, but you'll be restricted to a rigid archetype more than ever to get an effective character. Without spells like jump & slowfall or skills like acrobatics how is my Assassin going to get on buildings to bowsnipe? Sounds like I won't be able to.

Agreed.

Actually, there is a thing called balance in single player games and levitation breaks that. You are surely one of those who want 100% chameleon to be enchatable and work as it did in OB? If that is the case, I've been through that talk many times and there is no point in going on with a yes/no argumentaion when the other part refuses to see that a single player game has balance which should be noted. Which bethesda has done with giving archers more power and balancing it with less arrows. That is balance. Leavitation is not.

Yeah i agree. fewer options (like levitate) = fewer "classes" to RP (like Arcane assassin). This is just a single limitation of the current generation though, I can think of many others. We just have to make due with what we got, and I'm sure Skyrim will still be an amazing game (even if it's less open and accessible than Morrowind or even Oblivion .). It's gonna be better than Fable II or III, that's for damn sure (not that that says much)

There can be balance in Levitation. you are surely one of those who thinks that if levitation were included, it would have to be the same as it was in Morrowind, with no advancements. Think outside the box.

None of these things are really directly related to the quality of the graphics.

The world scale is not quite realistic because it's a lot easier to fill 16 square miles with content than 400 square miles. The people doing level and world design are most likely not the same people who work on the graphics. If you want to see a game with a realistically-sized landscape, check out JC2. Notice how most of the world is just boring, empty space, and how even in the fastest jet it takes several minutes to get across the map? The devs don't want it to take you hours of walking through barren landscape to travel between two POIs.

The mountains are dwarfed for a very good reason - if they tried make realistic mountains then there would only be one mountain in the entire 16 square mile game world. If you tried to make Skyrim with life size mountains, you'd end up with a world that's bigger and more empty than JC2.

Loading walls are there not because they're spending time on graphics but because the current 5 year old console hardware can't handle open cities. This is as much of a CPU limitation as a graphical limitation.

Ruining the big mountain illusion was probably not the devs' main concern with levitation (especially when compared to balance issues, AI issues, world design considerations, and levitation animations). All I was saying is that levitation, unless there's an invisible ceiling or something, could potentially ruin that illusion. But I really don't think that removing levitation and improving graphics were closely linked decisions.


Also two questions - how do we know there's no jump spell, and how is magic being amputated at the knees?

I have. I keep up with the news like any other avid TES fan.
I was referring to your comment about the gimmicky and 'illusion' of large scale mountains. How can you know that the mountains will be small scale and stupid when you haven't climbed them or even seen them up close? http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qJ-br2islIA/TZTu3E1aFgI/AAAAAAAAAfQ/IV6cnZtXTzI/s1600/Skyrim_CompositeMountain.jpg is the most we've seen of Skyrims mountains and that definitely doesn't look small scale or 'gimmicky'.
Like others have said, have you thought about consoles before saying that BGS spend too much time on graphics? Would you rather Skyrim look the same as Arena?

Oh I have thought outside the box and come to the conclusion that the most balanced form of levitation would be that you cannot cast spells or attack while using it, while it constantly takes magicka away from you.

We've already heard there will be no acrobatics/athletics, which pretty much means everyone has the same movement speed & jump ability. If levitation is out as well, it stands to reason that other movement enhancing magic will also be cast aside as unnecessary. Everything points towards devs trying to keep the player rooted to the ground.
That, imo, is cutting Magic off at the knees. (No feet, no running/jumping)