The best challenge or balance i ever had was in Metro 2033 on ranger mode. It was simple, you could kill fast and you could get killed fast. The trick was in the ammo. It was rare, and there was a limit how much you can carry. Now i know this isn't the same but the point is that the game was a challenge from start to end.

That's just for Legendary enemies. Look at the Survival difficulty damage multiplier dealt by the player. Original is 0.5x and the mod changes this to 2x. That is making the game easier. Much easier. You're doing more than twice the damage! Why not read the description;

"This will make the game easier obviously, but overall I think it's more fun to play a game where both sides have high damage."

I share the same sentiment OP. I'm lvl 58 and been killing everything with ease on survival since lvl 30... Maybe I should settle for using pipe guns

No, it's just called legendary survivor. Why don't you read the description. Try it, find some live mines and tell me how you feel.

Oh, for God's sake man, just look at this image;

http://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mods/1151/images/333-0-1447451102.png

You can see that the damage multiplier for Survival difficulty is originally set at 0.5X for damage dealt and 2X for damage received and that the mod changes this to 2X but keeps the 2X for damage received, yes? This means that you get more than twice the damage dealt while still just receiving 2X. This makes it easier, obviously, as per the description of the author, which is;

"This will make the game easier obviously, but overall I think it's more fun to play a game where both sides have high damage."

Use your eyes man.. Legendary Survival. I clearly stated 300% not 200%. lurn2reed plx

heh I just killed a level 60 named super mutant and I was level 34. He had a mini gun and I had energy sniper rifle. took a bit to kill him, but just stay out of his range and no problem.

You responded to a post that informed you that the mod you suggested the OP should use to make the game harder actually makes the game easier. You were wrong. Deal with it.

If I was wrong I'd be actually able to admit it, I'm not stubborn or ignorant enough to be victim to such negative psychological states as denial. Anyway, your need to argue over the internet without any substantial evidence is both boring and time wasting.

So how about those missile launcher mutants salerene? I'm so obsessed trying to kill them without letting them fire once so there's more ammo on their bodies.

And yet that is exactly what you're doing. This mod makes it easier, you do more than twice the damage on Survival difficulty with the same damage received as vanilla. The point of the mod according to the author is to make the damage "more realistic", not to make things harder, to get rid of the 'bullet sponge' feel of the Survival difficulty. If you actually bothered to read the description and the comments you would have seen that. You would see that now you one-shot enemies, even Legendary ones because to them, you do three times as much damage! But you didn't and so you were wrong.

A few comments from the comments section;

"On a second playthrough with this mod enabled I killed the deathclaw in Concord with 1 shot from a pipe pistol!"

"Damage is a little high, on normal survival, a sniper shot while sneaking is barely enough to get a kill, here a single pistol shot to the foot is an instant kill..."

"having 3x weapon damage is too easy, i one shot everything."

"Could you make a version which makes your survival damage dealt 1x? I think 2x is a little too much."

"Hello, Nice mod!, as stealth though find x2 a bit overpowered, any chance one could be made so damage is 1.2 or 1.5?"

You were wrong. Just swallow your pride and move on, man.

Challenge is not an important element for an RPG. Some people fail to keep that fact in mind. Challenge is merely one of many elements of excellent game design and it is not important for various games, or even included, because it just does not fit what the game is intended for.

Role playing games are about "playing a role". If you think that Fallout 4 is easy, especially on Survival level, you are not playing a character concept but merely using whatever the game offers in order to defeat everything and anything you might meet.

This is not a "bad design" as some people claim. On the contrary, it is excellent design. The problem is with the player, not the designer(s). Such players are playing the wrong type of game, that's all. The game, as an RPG, is balanced to allow playing a wide variety of character concepts. Some players simply do whatever the game allows in order to maximize their killing potential regardless of any character concept they may have at the character creation screen. It's like blaming a racing game for not having puzzles. They are playing the wrong type of game for the actions they are taking because a (good) RPG has to allow a wide variety of characters to be viable, thus including a wide variety of content that a player could choose to use that would make the game "easy" (but it isn't "easy" for any specific character concept, only if you go about playing the game to "beat it" rather than "experience it through your character").

For people who want a challenge to play on consoles is self-defeating because any game will have to be customized to their own level of "challenge". Difficulty levels will not do that. Even if they offer a slight difference initially, such players will always dominate a game once they learn its mechanics. That's true for any game, not just RPGs.

The one option such players have if they choose to play on consoles, thus removing the ability to alter the game to their personal wishes, is to make choices within the game world that creates a challenge via their own conception of "role playing". For example, as was mentioned, play with the choice that the only healing available is via natural means such as food, water, and sleep. Play with ammo count limits would be another example of such a choice.

It is not up to the developer to cater to an individual's preference. In the case of BGS, they do this anyway via support of mods, stronger support than perhaps any other developer. They do this specifically so that players can customize their games to the individual player's preference because each player has different preferences and these preferences are often in conflict with each other.

You have options to meet your preferences. Use them, do not complain for the developer to use them.

Well, use only your Vault 111 suit and unmodded weapons. Should make things a bit thougher at least.

Be sure to follow me on my thread: hardcoe and Realism.

The more people see, reply, and agree with, the better.

kk

Excellent.

What is "important" is going to vary from person to person. While I agree to a point...I've played many RPGs in the past that were enjoyable without being terribly challenging, I've also played RPGs that were very good at being RPGs while also providing a challenging experience. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

That's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is that the "metagame" of using the RPG mechanics to one's advantage is actually part of the game. It's not impossible to make this a necessity while still allowing for "character concepts" to shine. Granted, such games are more difficult to design, and are much easier to design when the game is "party based."

I have to disagree here. If the game can't be a good RPG and be challenging then there definitely are some shortcomings to the game's design. Again, though, this is extremely difficult to achieve in a very large game with a lot of flexibility to the mechanics. I'm not faulting Bethesda for having trouble pulling it off...I'm just disagreeing with the notion that challenge and role-playing flexibility are mutually-exclusive concepts. They are not. They are just very difficult things to stuff into the same box. One should not need to actively avoid using the RPG mechanics to their advantage to prevent the game from becoming too easy. That smacks of room for improvement in the balance department.

Congrats on getting the last word in.

I could not agree more. I'm on very hard (not survival because I like dogmeat, but the AI is awful) and have not dropped below 60 stimpacks. I keep waiting for the game to get challenging, but I'm getting stronger while everyone stays the same. I was OP at lvl 15; lvl 46 is a cake walk. I can't wait for the GECK so modders can fix this game.

He probably just said that just to end the conversation because he has no arguments but i bet he is still in denial.

Nope, I'm just not going to talk to someone who spent 10% of his posting on this forum trying to argue over something that's an opinion. If he wants to base his opinion on people who spent 10 minutes playing a mod that's his ignorance to dwell in. I can guarantee a playthrough with 300%/300% will have way more player deaths that 0.5/200%. Mathematically every time you were <33% health on survival you would have been dead on legendary survival.

It's quite easy to over mod yourself I think.

If you're finding it too easy why don't you strip back your armour and your guns, maybe ignore legendary items, and carry on playing. Any further challange to the game as you're playing it is just going to be increasing the difference between the damage your guns can deal and the damage the enemies can be dealt. If the game isn't giving you that difference, make it for yourself

Unfortunately, you're unable to either read or simply admit you're wrong. The change that have an effect on difficulty is the damage multiplier which has been changed from 0.5X damage dealt to 2X damage dealt while the damage taken remains the SAME at 2X, making the game considerably more easier than vanilla.

Do you understand or do I have to explain it to you in crayon?

Edit:

Mathematically? Well, then Survival has been made about 2.5 times easier and Legendary Survival about 3.5 times easier. You realise that damage taken has only increased 50% from 2X to 3X in the 'optional' mod, while damage dealt has increased from 0.5X to 3X, which is five times as much damage? You understand that the more damage you deal, the faster you kill which will inevitably lead to less damage received from enemies, yes? This isn't about opinion, it's elementary, it's about, and to quote yourself; maths!

Because that's kind of stupid. Sure, self-imposing rules that makes the game harder isn't something new nor odd in any way, but merely stop using the items the game provides you, items that you're supposed to use, the game being designed around them, is frankly absurd. Besides, how would someone go around role-play such a ridiculous scenario?

Fact is that the Survival difficulty isn't challenging enough, it should have been made much, much harder.

LOL. I went south at level 7 and almost killed a Behemoth. Recommended.

I come from Stalker and Survival is almost hard. What I learned in Stalker, I am weak and powerless and killing stuff is difficult, so I arrange to have things die as opposed to killing them myself. The Behemoth was fooling with a couple of Deathclaws and I kept that happening till he was 15% or so. Then I started in with my Pipe Sniper and would have killed him but he broke into the building I was hiding in upstairs and smashed the entire top floor. I laughed, I died. .

If you're level 50 and over, I just naturally assume you are boss enough to tackle anything the game throws at you.