Hi guys,

perhaps some of you have also been approached by a certain user regarding some in-the-works megamod named F3Redux, who is currently window shopping for mods and asking for people's permissions. His PMs include great lines like "Anyway, let me know within a week's time whether there's any issue with me utilising any of your mod elements in my mod. If I don't hear anything after that, I'll take it as an affirmative YES that I have your permission so that I can move ahead with confidence"

For certain reasons I denied him permission to use any of my script code (something I almost never do). His reply was rather unpleasant of course and he explained me that he doesn't care much since this is a one time project anyways which he will not support after release. Seems he just wants to use community resources for some personal fame and glory, or whatever his angle is.

Now I believe in sharing, that's the only way communities can grow, but in this case it doesn't seem like the person has the modding communities best interest in mind.

So just a friendly heads up,
K

Hey :wavey:

Asking for something when the decision has already been made to take it defeats the point of asking...

I'm sure your wishes will be respected around here.

Seems to me it's you who doesn't have the communities best interest in mind. How does denying this persons request to use your script coding help the community?

Maybe you have good reasons, but are they really in the best interest of the community? Objectively speaking, this instance only of course.

As someone who has made significant contributions to the FO3 community, Kai deserves the benefit of the doubt. Respect for contributors is also part of the health of this community.

Also, I've noticed that getting into the details of these sort of issues, in these forums, ends up badly.

+1 to this.

Kai has been a workhorse around here (even though he left for NV).

I didn't read it that he would deny others to use if they had an approach that was supportive of the community. It is pretty well established that mod packs are doo doo and that this person is not going to support the pack after release is reason enough. Say nothing of the rudeness of assuming yes.

Stay away from mod packs.

Read what I wrote above. I've actually never denied people to use of any of my code, almost all my Readmes state "do whatever you want with it".
But in this case the person made it clear to me he has no interest in supporting his en devour after release, nor working together with other modders to ensure compatbility with other mods or such. He is plain and simple window shopping, taking any mod he wants, no matter what the Readmes state regarding reusing the modders work.


Thanks, yes this is not something I would normally post about. My attitude in general is "take it, do whatever you want and create something cool for the community". But I'm sure now this guy has no interest in the modding community, probably wants to build some mega mod for his resume or some such and sell it as his own work.

I see, and how would a new mod for the community not benefit it?

Notice, I'm not taking sides here. I'm not condoning how the person treated you or anything of the sort -- I'm merely pointing out the irony of the phrase you chose to use. I'm sure you might be able to wiggle out a little rationalization in how a new mod from this particular person wouldn't "really" be "helping" the community at all, but it would be a stretch.

I've noticed a few tries at this already here. Instances such as mod packs are poo poo, although I'm sure not all are, and I'm sure that even if all were, it didn't disclude the possibility of this one possibly being alright. It was also mentioned that the mod wouldn't be supported after release - well, I've got plenty of mods that weren't supported after release that I'm thankful were released to begin with. I've even got a few that I managed to edit myself since they were very minor issues that needed to be taken care of and I was still thankful they were released and not supported.

So there ya go, I've already pumped holes into two of the reasons given for why this mod *might* not benefit the community. I say, what's the harm in at least giving it a chance to do some good.

Other than... what is it... social... gah, it's like shunning, it's part of how we shape people to act, it's part of the reason people come to believe that black matches everything and not to wear white after labor day.... well the word has slipped my mind at the moment. I could get into a digression here about how social reality isn't actual reality because the issue on this thread here really does connect with that... but my . key is running out of steam here... and it would take just as much time explaining the connection as it would explaining the concept...

It still seems to me you're more interested in sanctioning the man behind the mod than you are in giving a new mod the chance to benefit the community.

If support for it is dropped at the moment of release (so you're screwed if there are bugs, which there usually are initially in large compilations), and only contains mods everyone can already download for themselves where's the benefit?

How is pissing off respected and useful modders by creating a compilation you don't plan to support a benefit?

The OP is right and has a valid point.
1.If somebody asks to use parts of a Mod and the owner says, "No." then accept it. You don`t ask if you don`t half expect a `no` as opposed to a yes.

2.Not supporting a Mod (at least for a little while) means that the Mod might as well not be made at all. Where`s the contribution when just about everyone with more than 10 Mods will probably have some kind of game-ruining confllict.

Speaking as someone who's not a modder but uses and greatly appreciates what the modders produce, I agree with Kai 100%, if for no other reason than the guy who "asked" permission to use his resources was incredibly rude and presumptuous, and I would have rejected his "request" on that basis alone.

Good manners, politeness and treating people with proper respect do count for something.

If you read what I wrote in it's full entirety you could have had your answer.

You're making a presumption about how this mod will be for the sole purpose of rationalizing an irrational decision. You don't know that it will be buggy. FWE is basically a compilation of 50+ other mods. The benefit is in creating a time saving feature for people who don't have hours to troll through the nexus looking for mods, and also there is a benefit in compilations in that they can create a cool mod combination that someone may not have thought of on their own. There are benefits, but what you're doing is purposefully not trying to think of them because doing so would go against the mind you've already made up.




That's obviously not the only thing going on. Straw man logical fallacy.



#1 is completely correct, except it misses my point entirely. My point was that denying a new compilation mod was in no way in the best interest of the community so as to point out the irony in the OP.

You guys can bring up as many separate points as you want -- but if you're not talking about my point then you aren't really proving it wrong in itself.

I don't understand how you all can miss something so obvious but... just because Kai had his feelings hurt doesn't mean that the community wouldn't benefit from a new mod. \

#2 Just because the mod might svck, doesn't mean it will svck. Using that logic, could you allow any new mods at all? Every mod will stop being supported eventually, and not every mod needs support after release.





This is all very normal. I'd have probably done the same thing. Doesn't mean that it's in the best interest of the community to do so.

Except that a compilation mod *isn't* a new mod, it's a collection of old mods. FWE isn't great because they released FWE1 and left it at that, it's great because they listened to things that could be better, and improved them. Support after initial release for an overhaul is essential.

It is a new mod, technically -- but please, let's not argue semantics. I've already stated how compilation mods can be helpful, both by saving people the time it takes to go through the thousands of mods on the forum and by possibly combining mods in such a way as someone else may not have thought of that creates a unique game-play experience.

I don't believe that support after an initial release for a mod-pack is essential 100% of the time.
As I've stated previously, there are mods that have had no support after release because they did not need them. There have been mods with bugs that were easily fixed and still proved useful even if they were "Some Assembly Required" sort of things.

You're judging "usefulness" in too narrow a sense.

Perhaps, but in this particular case I think it's justified, anybody who assumes the answer is yes if they don't hear back clearly doesn't really care, and anybody who actively insults people who don't want their work in a compilation mod is not the sort of person I would want to use a mod from.

Well, no one would force you to use it.

Thing is, I like to look at things at their root.

What I see here is this reasoning: If a mod is not useful, then we will not allow it to be posted.

So then, I think to myself, if you can show how such a mod is useful, then the reasoning mentioned above will be null and void.

But somehow it doesn't seem to work like that. Sometimes I feel like I'm talking with crazy people. They give me their reasons, I void the reasons, yet it doesn't end with that.

What this comes down to is punishment for "inappropriate" behavior. What the community sees as in its best interest is ridding itself of the offender, but that doesn't mean that not having the offenders mod is necessarily also in the communities best interest. It's horrible that I use double negatives :wave:

Compilation mods are not the big convinience they may appear to be.

1) How often is a compilation mod going to be comprised of mods someone wants?

Not very. They'll be mods that are wanted and that aren't. In most cases, you'd download a compilation of fifty mods and only really like thirty three.


2)Updates.

Unless the pack creator actually bothers to update the pack everythime one of the mods is updated (And that would involve downloading the updating, putting it in the pack and reuploading the whole thing everytime), then the 'convinient' pack is going to be loaded with outdated mods.


3) Conflicts.

I've seen packs which were just comprised of the highest rated mods. As a result, they also had a number of mods that did the exact same thing and as such wouldn't have worked together. (ie: multiple body replacers or texture replacers) Someone would download the pack then wonder why their game crashes.

4) Support.

Nine times out of ten, when you have a problem with a mod, you either contact the creator and go on the forums. I know a lot of modders get slightly peeved when someone complains about a problem in a mod and it turns out they are using a version that's out of date. This goes back to 2). And when th modder finds out the reason their using an outdated version is becuase they got it in a pack, they tend to wash their hands of the whole thing.

5) Permissions.

The 'If I don't hear back within a week, I'll assume its ok' ploy is a common one, not everybody will be able to reply within that time (May be offline, on holiday, taking a break from modding) so by 'assuming' they can then turn around and say 'well, I gave you a chance to refuse me permission'

It's common courtosy to ask for permission and most compilation pack makers won't even bother, they're just looking for a quick bit of fame. Some even move onto outright stealing work and passing it off as their own.

Oh, of course, I also think I have something approximating the cynicism to not use non-popular and tested compilation mods, however a lot of people don't. Bad mods that market themselves as showing the best of the community hurt us all, by turning people off mods before they've ever really had a chance. I have friends who were turned off the Oblivion modding scene by bad mod packs or wrong instruction lists, but ended up loving it after I showed them the error of their ways.

All presupposition. Besides, if we deny one mod because it's a compilation pack, or one mod because it's not going to be updated afterwards, why isn't there a general rule denying all mods with these same characteristics from being uploaded? Or deleting them after they have been uploaded.

I've yet to see the exciting and useful mod pack. Could someone point me to one?

DevenTarn hit all the salient points I think. Amongst modders a consensual set of agreements is that if it is not new then do not put your name on it.

FWE is far far different from this kind of thing in that they worked out the incompatibilities - if this guy is like the 20 previous mod pack 'authors' I've seen that will not be addressed. In fact the no support for one mod is one thing - no support for 20-50 mods is quite another. Overhauls like FWE that had well over a year or more of care and attention to minute detail are in a category far far above a mod pack that is hastily put together with questionable motivation and permissions.

Also is this mod pack 'author' going to even test that they all work find together? Is he going to work out the kinks and conflicts? Doubtful.

How annoying would it be for a true mod author to get reports on a mod then find out it came from a mod pack and was packaged incorrectly (this has happened in Oblivion mod packs).

While yes many mods don't need a lot of attention after release - generally the more complicated the mod the more attention is needed.

How annoying is it that a modder who would still give attention is not knowing that people are instead frustrated because people are posting in pointless help me threads that this mod pack has issues. Either not knowing that the mod was re-released or what it was mixed with.

Mods can be said to have a scope of application they deal with by mixing them they are expanding that scope and so when people report issues are going to be reporting any number of things - if the mod author does consent to help with issues embedded in their mod pack then they will have to field the questions about those other mods too.

If updates do happen (and I've seen mod authors come back to mods 1-2 years or more after release and no activity with essential updates.

Mod packs are doo doo. This is a statement that is based in experience by those who have been around to see them fail. Not a statement based in fears and presuppositions.

But it is your install - if you want to put doo doo in it then expect to get doo doo out of it.

Not really, becuase it's exactly what has happened with 99.9% of previous complilation packs.




Because there's a difference between a single mod that only has one release and a compilation pack filled with mods that have already been updated several versions beyond what is in the packs.

Ok, look up the definition, and then look up confirmation bias.

Then re-write your second sentence because it made no sense.

After having read the entire thread I am left to believe you are simply trying to instigate arguments on a forum for amusment and not looking at things at their root - if you were, it is absolutely clear in the OP that this is not the sentiment that has been produced here. The sentiment produced is one of a community built respect over a number of years, and providing nothing but simple facts about who the individual approached the situation.


Actually, it does based off the wording that the person used when addressing the OP. In this particular situation we are expecting to see things jammed together, which will leave bugs in it (I have never seen a single compilation released without bugs in a single release because when putting together so much content from different authors who had different approaches and things in mind when developing, you are absolutely bound to break something or introduce unintended behavior into the system that you did not expect or account for by having not coded up the mod from scratch on your own with your own thought process). By out right stating he will not support it after release, this is absolutely no benefit to the community as a whole - where if the author did intend to work out any bugs that may come up and continue development (or support updates coming from the mods he wants to include - a major issues of compilation mods) the how can it possibly have a benefit (as again, all the mods already exist individually, and can thus be combined in what ever manner the user wants without possibly submitting to included content they do not - the mods included may well be updated rendering a non-supported compilation outdated and thus obsolete for anything other than nostalgic historical purposes, and one does also have to take into account that there is an established community standard here that has been developed over years and years which needs to be considered and respected in all situations - the fact that you were so willing to strip this aspect away to make your argument seems a little inconsistent at best, you can't pick and choose facts of the situation).

You claim to call our sentiments presumptions, but that could only be so if they were not built off of continued past experiences - if anything, you actions as a newer member in the community express presumption more so than comments from seasoned and experienced members of the community. I further maintain this sentiment based off your actions in a few other threads as of late as well, specifically targeting veteran members of the community with what seem to be petty arguments at best.

I will not carry this particular bit any farther, nor will I respond to any sentiments directed at this post that anyone wishes to make as such conversations are neither appropriate or beneficial to this community or the forums. Moving forward I will allow Moderation staff to address these situations as they see fit - I commented only as I have seen it becoming a trend over the past few days here. I, myself, will be going back to what I tend to do, and helping people who are having problems getting things going with the game or just have some general mod questions.

Ok, have fun! I don't have time atm to rip every last line you wrote to shreds, but since you've read my other posts I'm sure you're aware I could. But I do have time for your appetizer! Here ya go: 1 second of thought brings me.... an educated guess is still a guess.

A strange thing to say, considering you basically ignore what everybody else has said.

The so called modder putting together the compilation pack shows a lack of courtousy in his method of asking for permission. Assuming he has permission to use whatever he wants for whatever he wants shows a suprising amount of arrogance.

That was the main focus of Kai's post. That he assumed he'd have permission and then spat the dummy out when he was refused because of his manner of asking.


As pointed out, compilation packs of a history of being buggy, poorly put together, filled with conflicting and outdated mods, sometimes lacking master files for some of the mods to work and basically just jammed together to make themselves look like big bad modders. In some cases, they don't even bother to give credit for the mods they use and when the issue of credit is brought up, they usually pull the pack and disappear into the ether.