Alright, I was trying to think of some ways to make melee oriented characters a little more... fun dynamic for those of us who want don't want to feel like they're playing a fighting game with only two buttons. I'm worried about this because I can't shake the feeling that most melee perks will be passive (like that "maces ignore armor" perk from the Game Informer article). That's a good perk idea because it encourages specialization with certain weapons and allows for more variation between different weapon types. Perks like this should definitely be in the game but they have their drawbacks as well.

While they do help to define your warrior, they also seem restrictive. It seems inevitable that you'll reach a certain point in the game where you can absolutely murder everything with a mace because you chose all the mace-related perks. However, by doing so you've also watered down your options when facing tougher enemies because anything but a mace simply won't do the trick. You've also blurred the advantages of choosing that weapon type since you invested so much into it that the unique armor-ignoring features take a back seat to the raw damage you would do against any type of enemy. Instead of becoming a situational weapon (in this case, against armored opponents) it has become the go-to weapon for every situation.

Again, that's not a bad thing if you have something else to show for that investment as well. Instead of simply leveling up other skills to help remove some of the boredom of your mace warrior, why not include some "active melee perks" that could really add things to your playstyle even as you specialize?

*By the way, there may very well be perks like this in the game, I'm just voicing the doubts/concerns I have if there aren't any because Fallout didn't have that many.

The extremely simple solution I thought of, and am hoping to improve on or scrap for a much better idea someone else could provide, is to have some activated perks (like a whirlwind attack or whatever) dependent on your stamina. Active perks would be chosen just like any other perk but would maybe be linked with a passive perk. For example, maybe you need to invest 3 perk points into a passive, tiered "two-handed swords do more critical damage" perk before being given the option to chose an active two-handed sword perk that would allows you to swing and knock people over while your character is running or something.

That's it really, I'd like to hear some opinions. I'm not doing a poll because none of this really matters anyway. I'm just doing this for my own sake really... and anyone else interested in wasting time until the game comes out.

I'm wondering if dual wielding will be a perk or if its available from the start for everyone.

I'm actually hoping it is a multi-leveled perk. Every point into it would reduce off-hand penalties to damage or something.

they never said you can't pick all Axe, Sword, and Hammer perks - you'll just be limiting perks from your other skills. (since you have a max of 50 choices)

I didn't get bored on my warrior characters in the previous games. I usually didn't make more than one straight warrior character per game because they didn't really have a replay value.

We don't gain perks, anymore, once we go over the soft level cap?

Exactly my thoughts when I read his post...

BGS may not even have decided yet. I havent heard anything official.

EDIT forgot a t.

Even then, there are some 200+ perks, if the math is correct. There is no way you'll get all of them.

The way I understand it you will continue to gain perks above the soft cap it is just that leveling is so slow past 50. No idea on confirmation of it, but that is the way it sounded to me.

I'm pretty sure it was stated somewhere in a GI article that after softcap you will recieve no more perks.

I know. I'm honestly just curious to know about this. I just like the idea of still having hidden potential locked away at even higher levels... albeit much more difficult to unlock.

hey awesome topic title, i just got done watching that movie on netflix, and i agree that they should have "special attacks" Like maybe one where you kick people to stagger them if your using twohanders or something, kinda like oblivions power attacks but...with more style

Just rereading the transcript from the GI interview with Todd Howard no mention of whether or not you no longer get perks past 50 just that the games target balance is 1-50 and it looks like depending on character creation hard cap will be in the lvl 75 range.

Well I meant based off the expected max level i'm thinking 50 perks.

Back on topic: . I highly doubt once you chose Mace perks that your Axe perks become greyed out and unchoosable.

My point was that once you've reached a moderately high level and specialized in about one or two weapon skills, as I imagine most players will, there will eventually be a point where you get bored with pressing "attack" and "block" over and over again. Specialization perks filter out weapon types you don't want to use at that point. I don't know what the level cap is, if there even is one, nor do I know how many perks you'll be able to choose but if you find yourself bored with maces and want to start using some blade perks, you'll probably have to grind a bit to get to a comfortable level with them to progress through the game. "Active" perks unique to each weapon type allow for more variety and fun without having to switch weapon styles.

Being a warror in Oblivion was boring because all you did was hack hack hack. It should be much more fun with the more advanced combat system.

Im kinda hoping for some good ole speical moves like LMB LMB RMB

I forgot to add that these moves would maybe be in a menu similar to the spell menu and should be hot-keyable.

I had the definite impression that perks weren't simply Fallout-style +x% modifiers, but also similar to the Journeyman/Expert/Master perks in Oblivion - which, in my mind, would certainly allow for some perks to be little moves that spice up combat.

I agree with your original post and have similar worries in regards to the perks. They need a good balance between the passive and active perks. They need to throw in some specialized attack perks further down the skill tree to keep your 'specialized weapons combat' exciting in the later stages of the game. I mean finishing moves, dual wielding and dragonshouts will be great for generating variance in combat gameplay, but at the 60, 80, 100 hour mark, even that is going to get a little stale, so throwing in unlockable attacks in the form of perks, or as someone else mentioned in another thread, skilled attacks that you can learn from master trainers late in the game would be great for keeping the combat fresh at those deeper 'hour marks' and would allow the advanced character further room for growth in the late stages of the game. Not to mention keeping it exciting for the player.

To answer your question in the above post; the level cap is a soft fifty, so 50 perks is how many you can choose.

There is something strange I've noticed though, from all the information we have so far about perks.

-First, its been confirmed we have roughly 280 perks to choose from.
-Second, the screenshot of the U.I with the mage and the constellations, show several magic skills containing no more than 9 or 10 perk points each.
-With 18 skills and 280 possible perks; then that would average out to roughly 15 perks per skill.
-So my question is--Where are all the extra perks? Are the warrior and thief skill sets heavily stacked with perk points to make up for the shallow set of perks in the mage? Perhaps there are upwards of 20 or 25 perk points for 1 handed combat; another 20 or 25 perk points for 2 handed combat--who knows?
-Maybe there are perk points that aren't revealed in the stars until you've reached a certain level of specialization within that perk tree.
-Maybe there are perks that are inherent to race that we get at the beginning of the game.
-Maybe we can learn certain perks within the gameplay itself (like being taught them by a master trainer etc.)
-All I know for certain, from the info we have, is that their is a discrepency from the average of about 5 perks per skill in those magic skill trees, which means there is a huge surplus of perks that need to go somewhere else---Maybe you will find them in the 'warrior class' and you will get that variety in specialization that you hope will be in the game.

You only get 50 out of 280 perks each playthrough. The number of different combinations is insane.

@ The OP

I totally follow your train of thought. The situation you describe is very similar to how fighters generally progress in D&D. Though they are not physically prevented from using a wide variety of weapons and armour, the specialization done through your feats ensure that all other options but using your favoured weapon seem like you're, either forsaking your specialization, or making a bad choice. I suppose one option to specialization would be to pick perks that doesn't spike your competence in any one area, but to focus on other things, to maintain character's versatility.

For instance, instead of picking a perk that improves your competence with swords and another that improves the potency of blocking with a shield, you might pick perks that reduce your stamina consumption when swinging a weapon, and another that... I dunno, increases your resistance to magic. Basically, you'd loose the spearhead competence in any one area but maintain a wider array of feasible tactics to keep gameplay more varied.

Hmmm... that's interesting. It would make sense that warriors/thief type characters get more perks than mages. However, the perk points on that screen may have several tiers to them (increase fire damage 5% with every point placed in this perk slot). The 280 estimate may also be the sum all of those tiers. In fact, I'm sure of it. 280 is too large of a number for all of those perks to be unique. This is also why I'm worried that many of them will be passive stat increases. Still, pure mages might take no thought at all when building if they are given so few magic perk options.

I really like your idea of unique perks for each race and could see it taking a step further. Say you decided to play as a dunmer. Maybe you'd be given the option of placing perk points into specific dunmer-only perks. Maybe they'd be further categorized for dunmer mages, warriors, thieves, etc. For example, maybe a dunmer warrior would be given the choice of placing perk points into "ancestor perks" that allowed for buffs to damage with melee weapons and new abilities like a stamina absorption perk that had a neat ghostly animation.

The trainers are also a good idea. Maybe you'd have to meet a certain level in that skill before they teach you something. Going back to the idea of racial perks, maybe some trainers won't be able to teach you an ability if you are a different race.

The only thing I am really concerned about is if you can "respec" characters. Just pay some cash or some other penalty and you get all your perks points back and can re apply them how you want. Obviously if you spend the entire game specializing in Melee 1 Hand Swords your magic skills will be so low that it isn't feasible to respec to a mage but it would be nice to swap straight from Swords to Maces or to Axes or whatever.