Wars and Battles : V

» Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:14 pm

The final stand at the Oblivion gates was not very epic. Cyrodill's army was made up of 10 guys. This was one of my biggest issues with the game. This is the last stand for Tamriel but only 10 guys are sent to stop the invasion. I am sure this was an issue with the previous engine. With the addition of the new engine will we see large scale warfare and battles?

» Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:18 pm

Learn to suspend your disbelief.

100+ would have crashed any console or PC.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:38 am

I do hope there are some sweet battles. :celebration:

» Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:42 pm

Learn to suspend your disbelief.

100+ would have crashed any console or PC.

Reason for this is because there were no LODs for NPCs and their armor. Every npc on screen was displayed in their full 80,000 triangle glory regardless of distance, if they created distance models of 12000/6000 triangles you'd be able to have 5x the number of guys on screen before things begin to lag up.

AI processing really doesn't and shouldn't cause much of a hamper on your computer, the biggest thing in this circumstance is always polycount.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:21 am

AI processing really doesn't and shouldn't cause much of a hamper on your computer, the biggest thing in this circumstance is always polycount.

Given how static the AI is in Oblivion, and likely will be in Skyrim... thats true. If however the AI had a whole lot of freedom and needed to make a ton of choices at any one time, it wouldn't be a small thing to process. Some games such as ArmA2 for example dedicated at least half of the games used system resource to nothing but AI processing.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:00 am

When 50+ guys are bashing each other you don't need hyper complicated AI, nobody is going to notice if the NPCs in the battle are brickheads.

In arma 2 I've put 100+ bots on the screen and the game has ran just fine. Not to mention arma 2 has extremely complicated AI, every squad member performs numerous tasks when something as simple as a bullet lands next to them shot froma guy a mile away, they track your last known position, cover each other as they advance, etc. Such a thing would not need to be done when two groups of 30 men plow into each other and begin hacking each other up. It'd mostly be for cinematic purposes.

» Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:51 pm

10-12 soldiers in one area

maybe there will other soldiers in different areas

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:43 pm

10-12 soldiers in one area

maybe there will other soldiers in different areas

That's another thing that can be done, you can always have the area that you're confined to, then in other parts of the battlefield you can create dumdums that just perform simple task on mass.

For instance In oblivion if such a system were used, you could have had the main gate where you and martin fight, then in the distance you can have smaller oblivion gates opening, and low-poly dumdums bashing away at each other. You'll be too busy dealing with your own crap to notice that the guys fighting in the distance are morons.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:39 am

They could make your fighting area a confined space, but having soldiers fighting in the background would give the illusion of a big battle taking place.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:13 am

Meh, the Battle of Bruma was totally weak sauce. Not at all epic. 12 guys saving the empire from total annihilation . . . the dirty dozen? I think that events like that should be scripted to hell and back. I mean it's not like I'm going to repeat that same epic battle 5 times in a week right!?! I would rather it be memorable. Since Skyrim is in a state of civil war we should see something along these lines, but how epic will it really be?????

» Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:52 pm

I did find it odd that i had to close a oblivion gate...so a city could send me TWO soldiers as reinforcements. You mean they couldnt spare TWO before?!?!?!?!?!?!

Epic final battle? Puhlease. That was equivlent to a drunken brawl.

I understand the engine cant have 1000 npcs on at a time. But i dont think the game should make a 10 vs 10 battle. THE BATTLE OF ALL BATTLES. At the end of something like that the npcs should act as if that was only a small skirmish. Not an epic battle where we need to make a statue to remember it.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:25 am

I agree that a ton of stuff during big story fights should be scripted. Have low poly NPCs in the distance fighting (it doesn't even need to be that it could be a modified fire sprite that just looks like two people fighting really far away). Scripted explosions, reinforcements, bodies disappearing, etc. You only do large scale battles once a playthrough.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:42 am

I agree that a ton of stuff during big story fights should be scripted. Have low poly NPCs in the distance fighting (it doesn't even need to be that it could be a modified fire sprite that just looks like two people fighting really far away). Scripted explosions, reinforcements, bodies disappearing, etc. You only do large scale battles once a playthrough.

Yeah. I would be fine with just one!

» Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:50 pm

Im no expert but wouldnt tactics such as shieldwalls use a tiny amount of processing power. Also skyrim is going to be very mountanous. A battle in the mountains could easily limit your line of sight. Npcs would only spawn within range of you. And the rest would be "fighting" where you cant see. Suchh as different part of the valley or an old crater.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:38 am

If you closed the oblivion gates out side of the 6-7 or 8 cities "you know the oblivion gates each city was having trouble with" you get more soldiers to help with the Battle for Bruma

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:36 am

Yeah... I don't think this is really TES type gameplay. It's mainly focused on adventuring rather than warring.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:52 am

Yeah... I don't think this is really TES type gameplay. It's mainly focused on adventuring rather than warring.

It's really more for the sense of epicness, which Oblivion tried to be with this story and global crisis, but the number of NPC soldiers was telling you otherwise.

» Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:55 pm

If you closed the oblivion gates out side of the 6-7 or 8 cities "you know the oblivion gates each city was having trouble with" you get more soldiers to help with the Battle for Bruma

True, but going from 5 allies to 12 isn't an epic leap like this would be. This would make a battle seem like an actual battle, not just a petty duel.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:33 am

True, but going from 5 allies to 12 isn't an epic leap like this would be. This would make a battle seem like an actual battle, not just a petty duel.

Last time i bothered going through the Oblivion main quest im sure but not so sure there was more then 12 soldiers i believe its glitched im sure some other people may have noticed that even after the entire main quest the soldiers that were going down to the battle kept repeativly going to it like teleporting back to Bruma's main gate then they march of to battle again and again and again.

allso for those of you that dont know the Dremora's are NPC's aswell

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:57 pm

Last time i bothered going through the Oblivion main quest im sure but not so sure there was more then 12 soldiers i believe its glitched im sure some other people may have noticed that even after the entire main quest the soldiers that were going down to the battle kept repeativly going to it like teleporting back to Bruma's main gate then they march of to battle again and again and again.

allso for those of you that dont know the Dremora's are NPC's aswell

True there were more than 12 total. But a lot of people had freezing issues or CTDs because of the action onscreen and it STILL wasn't very epic. Dremora came in waves every minute or so after a certain amount died and it just seemed to slog on like that. Of course the goal wasn't to kill Dremora but to take out the siege engine so the battle there didn't have to be interesting.

» Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:12 pm

The Creation Engine had better [censored] be able to handle it. Because I agree, OB needed more, but couldn't handle it. GRRR :brokencomputer:
WE NEED OUR GIANT BATTLES, BETHESDA!

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:10 pm

I look at it like this: Those 12 are the best warrios in Tamriel, the people who your characters would look up to if you were not awesome. And they are so badass that more would just get in their way. :gun:

...but yeah, I do agree with the poster to an extent. It's not too big a deal, but it IS annoying.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:18 am

Learn to suspend your disbelief.

100+ would have crashed any console or PC.

In Oblivion, definitely. But with a new engine, then there would be no excuse, with the use of actual techniques like Tessellation or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7scW3AgzBJM. At least graphically talking.

And I don't believe a "simple" or "group AI" can't be done to handle such battles.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:06 am

The final stand at the Oblivion gates was not very epic. Cyrodill's army was made up of 10 guys. This was one of my biggest issues with the game. This is the last stand for Tamriel but only 10 guys are sent to stop the invasion. I am sure this was an issue with the previous engine. With the addition of the new engine will we see large scale warfare and battles?

Heck, it's a civil war out there. Of course we'll see large scale battles. :wink_smile: Though, again, they will be limited by the capacity of the new engine.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:01 pm

Heck, it's a civil war out there. Of course we'll see large scale battles. :wink_smile: Though, again, they will be limited by the capacity of the new engine.

Yeaaah, epic battles....Instead of 10 we'll have 12 guys fighting at the same time! yay!

Massive indeed!