Was Azura responsible for the fall of the Dwemer and the Hou : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:37 pm

Hey, I have question. Why do you suppose Dagoth chose a Dunmer shape when he was trying to set himself up as unbound from the curse of Tribunal?

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:29 pm

Hey, I have question. Why do you suppose Dagoth chose a Dunmer shape when he was trying to set himself up as unbound from the curse of Tribunal?

I've wondered about that myself but never found an explanation anywhere. My personal theory is that while Almalexia made herself continue to look like a Chimer because she regarded herself as truly divine and was too vain to accept the gray skin/red eyes, Dagoth Ur kept the gray skin as a way of saying to the Dunmer people, "Although I am bound to the Heart and I'm a god, I am still one of you".

Not that such an outlook would have worked for him since the Tribunal branded him as the Sharmat the moment they learned that he had not died (or at least not completely died) back in the First Era and could expose the truth about their divinity.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:37 pm

I've wondered about that myself but never found an explanation anywhere. My personal theory is that while Almalexia made herself continue to look like a Chimer because she regarded herself as truly divine and was too vain to accept the gray skin/red eyes, Dagoth Ur kept the gray skin as a way of saying to the Dunmer people, "Although I am bound to the Heart and I'm a god, I am still one of you".

Not that such an outlook would have worked for him since the Tribunal branded him as the Sharmat the moment they learned that he had not died (or at least not completely died) back in the First Era and could expose the truth about their divinity.

Earliest references to Dagoth Ur's dunmer coloration would be some of the stories surrounding the Battle at Red Mountain. From Nerevar at Red Mountain:

And then the Tribunal went into Red Mountain and met with Dagoth-Ur. Dagoth-Ur saw what had been done, for his skin had changed as well, and he tried to avenge the death of Nerevar but to no avail. He was driven off and thought dead. The Tribunal found the tools he had been guarding and, through study of Kagrenac's methods, turned themselves into gods.

Thousands of years after their apotheosis, the Tribunal are still the gods of Morrowind and the old ways of worship are remembered only by a few. And the murder of Nerevar is known to fewer. But his queen and generals still fear his return, for the words of Azura linger long and they see the mark of her curse on their people every day.

So according to this story, Dagoth Ur was still alive when Azura cursed the chimer people and turned them into Dunmer. (and got changed as well) In this case, the curse is instituted while Dagoth Ur is waiting for Nerevar's return so that the tools may be dealt with, but after the Tribunal murders Nerevar.

You know, I get a bit of a kick out of this text, since there is a clear implication that Dagoth Ur and Nerevar are responsible for the Dwemer disappearance.

Dagoth-Ur slew Kagrenac and took the tools the Dwemer used to tap the power of the Heart. He went to his dying lord Nerevar and asked him what to do with these tools. And Nerevar summoned Azura again, and she showed them how to use the tools to separate the power of the Heart from the Dwemer people.

And on the fields, the Tribunal and their armies watched as the Dwemer turned into dust all around them as their stolen immortality was taken away.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:10 pm

Dagoth-Ur slew Kagrenac and took the tools the Dwemer used to tap the power of the Heart. He went to his dying lord Nerevar and asked him what to do with these tools. And Nerevar summoned Azura again, and she showed them how to use the tools to separate the power of the Heart from the Dwemer people.

And on the fields, the Tribunal and their armies watched as the Dwemer turned into dust all around them as their stolen immortality was taken away.

I've read the other texts that you quoted but somehow never came across this one. This is quite is interesting.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:58 am

I've read the other texts that you quoted but somehow never came across this one. This is quite is interesting.

It's an Ashlander description of the battle, and it's the one where the "poisoned robes, poisoned candles, poisoned incantations" method of killing Nerevar originates.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:09 am

I've read the other texts that you quoted but somehow never came across this one. This is quite is interesting.

It's one of the three pieces of parchment behind Vivec after you meet him during the MQ.
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-nerevar-red-mountain

I personally find this the more trustworthy of the two texts on Nerevar that Vivec offered me, if only because I find the Ashlanders to be honest to a fault. They have far less to gain through lying than the god-king does.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:51 pm

Though the story has passed through the oral tradition and is suspect because of that.

Yeah, I knew that about Nerevar At Red Mountian, but the Three clearly show that they are capable of changing their appearance and so Dagoth Ur could've too. If he wanted to say he was the answer to the Tribunal's reckless arrogance (and later the Empire's intrusion), then he would've displayed himself as Chimer. Right? Unless, instead, he wanted more to underscore the pain that the curse inflicts on the Dunmer's soul, thereby making it easier to lay blame at the Tribunal's feet.

Then again, he was insane and thought another Giant Robot was an amazing idea. Maybe I'm not going to be able to get inside his head.

You know, applying psychological models to TES characters would be a whole lot easier if all the important ones didn't already know how to manipulate symbolism to change who they were (and the people they were emulating).

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:35 pm

You know, applying psychological models to TES characters would be a whole lot easier if all the important ones didn't already know how to manipulate symbolism to change who they were (and the people they were emulating).

In that way they differ not at all from real-world important people.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:28 pm

Yeah, but what I'm saying is that you start emulating Pelinal and even if you weren't insane before-hand, you are now because Pelinal has changed you and your motives and your reasoning. Similarly, you have also (slightly) changed Pelinal so that people now see him as, say, partial to an axe. Psychology depends on some kind of internal consistency, even if it is hidden from sight.