First off, I love FNV. It added a number of RPG elements to Fallout. However, the one thing that feels the *least* RPG is combat. F3 introduced VATS to provide a more RPG feel to combat. However, in FNV VATS has been rendered extremely ineffective. For a number of reasons:

1. VATS is horribly inaccurate at even moderate ranges. Even after taking a number of perks to boost accuracy
2. There were a number of nerfs to VATS perks - like Grim Reapers and Action Boy being split into two perk.
3. The nerf to the number of perks. While a good idea, you are now forced to choose between a perk that gives a bonus to VATS, or something that boosts both.
4. Out of VATS sniping is soooo easy. Man, even with a lousy combat score it is easy to hit a target from a distance in free fire. It feels extremly unRPG.

So anyways, how does everyone else feel? Did combat in FNV become more FPS then RPG?

VATS is horrible in New Vegas so yeah it was.

VATS wasn't NERFed, it was made less of a friggin' cheat. Why do you want to snipe using VATS anyways? The reason VATS is harder to use is because it was basically a free pass in Fallout 3, if you had a decent Small Guns or Energy Weapons skill, you could kill someone in a couple shots. You also take less than half the damage you're meant to in VATS (Fo3 and FNV).


VATS is still usable, and is useful. I use it on many occasions. You're not meant to fight JUST with VATS.

One time I had a guy was standing within melee range, I was using cowboy repeater,, and missed all 4 shots.

This, VATS was extremely broken in FO3; it was essentially god mode. Combined with the ability to max out every skill and attribute and the insanely over powered weapons and armor provided to you made FO3 an extremely unbalanced and boring walk in the park.

VATS was stong in F3, but in FNV it seems a waste of time - unless you are fighting up close. In long range VATS gets a 20% hit rate - in free fire I can hit almost 100% of the time at almost double the distance! Even with a low weapon skill. Why the huge difference?

Now, the huge DR bonsus in F3 was way to strong. But here in FNV - it seems free fire is the way to go. Your character may svck with guns, but if the PLAYER is half way decent then the game is a cake walk. It just seems odd to me - combat is the least RPG element in FNV.

I found VATS to be to much of an "I Win Button" in FO3 and in FONV as well. I rarely use VATS not because the concept is poor but because i often just plain and simple forget to use it. VATS though when used is for those situations where "free shooting" just can not get the job done. I use it especially in the Cass quest when you enter in the Silver Rush to shoot it out with the Van Graffs and thier guards. I tried and died about half a dozen times when i attempted to "free shoot" my way through the encounter and either i or Cass died. Then it hit me i have an "i win" button so i reloaded and re entered the Silver Rush qued up vats with head shots on 3 of the 4 guards, when the shooting started i head shot the 3 with VATS, "free shot" the last guard, and since the Van Graff's were severely limited in thier fire power with 4 guards dead i just mopped up afterwards. Easy as eating pie.

I do not use VATS beacuse it is too easy and feels like a gimmicky console addon. I mean it is cool on occasion and has it uses but mostly i just ignore it as it is an easy "I WIN" button. I spend most of the game "free shooting" and take my misses with a grain of salt, yes there is NOTHING more annoying than being dead on with your aim, having 100 skill in the weapon, and missing 4,5,6,7,8,9,10 times in a row (yes it has happened to me) THAT IS THE RPG element, or at least the stat driven part anyway. VATS just feels like a consoley gimmick but does add some "cinematic experience" to the shot. Do not get me wrong i like the system as it is and do feel that those who use VATS and like it should have it as it will not minimize the experience of FO. I also think the game does a good job of representing the stats and that "essence of chance" is necessary to maintain the RPG aspects of the game. If i hit everytime where i put the cursor, well the game WOULD be boring, and no longer be a true RPG but just another shooter set in a fantasy world of death and destruction.

I have seen stats work both ways as well sometimes i can just be close and because of my stats the game will give me the hit that in any other FPS/TPS would be a miss. I can hardly complain if on occasion dead on is a miss, and close is a hit i find it does balance out. It feels to me like the game works because whether you actually use VATS or choose to "free shoot" the stats are still driving the outcome. I find VATS to be the graphical presentation of the stat driven mechanic, and while "free shooting" does not offer any more or less accuracy than VATS i can still feel the mechanic in every "close" hit or "dead on" miss. That is the magic.

Asai

** No offense - but that sounds more like PLAYER skill rather then PC skill! :whistling: A 100 Guns character should not be missing at close range. Now, my 100 skill character will miss quite a bit in FNV after I drink a couple of beers! :celebration: Just like in Doom, Unrearl Tournament!

In say DAO, my high level warrior built to be accurate is not going to miss! Regardless how many beers I drank! Of course, I may forget to hit the Drink Healing Potion and still die! But here MY skill is more important then my PC skill!

I do think VATS is a bit overnerf, which make me abandon it once and for all. Yes it is almost god mode in FO3, but you can only do it with certain weaponsa and perks. But VATS itself is very random so I guess it is hard to "balance" it.

"Was VATS nerfed too Much in FNV?"

Dunno, didn't use it enough to find out. Obsidian improved iron sights and non-VATS shooting so much I rarely touch VATS. :shrug:

I like VATS ok, in both 3 and NV... but since they vastly improved free-aiming in NV, I use it far less than I used to. There's just something about lining up the carbine's crosshairs on the sternum of a Fiend, taking a half-breath, and gently squeezing the mouse (hehe), then watching the bloody mist envelope them as the .44 slug sends them [censored] over teakettle... all in realtime through my scope- that I seldom get via the klunky, borked-up cinematics that VATS usually dishes out.

As others have said, the VATS percentage-to-hit chance at anything but relatively close ranges svcks eggs, even for long ranged scoped rifles. It's stupid that even a half-blind boyscout could usually hit a nice fat target standing upright with most any rifle at 50 yards... yet in VATS, your world-class expert sniper with the best weapon known to man is lucky to get a 50% chance to hit them... mhmm, right.... so I usually just ignore VATS anymore unless multiple mobs get within chew-spittin' distance, then pop it up to finish them off with.

VATS is handy for getting off your first grenade toss though, to start the fight with. One thing I've never mastered is getting those stupid pineapples to end up anywhere near where I want them to explode, throwing freehand. VATS is miles better at getting an effective grenade hit in, than I am.

When I do use VATS in combat, against multiple mobs, I'll almost always start off with freehand shots- because I'm more likely to score a hit and get a kill (or 2 or 3 of them, if I'm lucky), and because it saves my VATS AP for taking out the survivors that manage to get closer in, which is where VATS actually earns its keep. When I try to start out the fight using VATS at moderate to longer ranges, I'll often as not end up with only one kill (or none, if VATS so chooses), no AP left, and a gaggle of ticked off varmints gnawing on my cojones while I frantically try to melee them with a rifle.

VATS was too strong in F3. However: VATS, when used woth a smiper rifle should have been increased. From long range it was like using a shotgun from the same distance. Weak.

Well, it was a friggin' god mode in F3. It may be a bit weak in NV but it's balanced overall, methinks.

nah, its the only was i can actually hit an enemy with a thrown explosive (otherwise it will just bounce off the floor and go god knows where) Its also the only way shotgun will do max damage, does anyone know what the deal with that is? i can shoot someone with shotgun point blank in the face, do maybe 20% damage, do the same shot in vats and their head will come straight off. It must be something to do with how the shot lands but its just impossible to make it land the way it does in vats in freeplay, so no, vats is still immensley useful

And that's bad in a RPG. A FPS/RPG hybrid such as the modern Fallouts are different of course, player skill has to play a part too. After all, i don't think there are many who liked Morrowind's combat system? :hehe:

I use VATS mainly in situations where my reaction times are fast enough to press v, but not fast enough to aim and fire at the head of an enemy, of course with Project Nevada mod i get more time to react thanks to the bullet time mode (one of the new ways to use AP), and that reduces my VATS usage even more.

VATS was too good in 3, i remember clearing half of the Mall with a rifle and low skill using VATS, with FWE!

Yup, so true.

VATS still has it's uses at certain points and thus it's still useful.

For instance, who here passes up a free VATS use when throwing grenades? I know I don't, because if I throw it myself, it might bounce off of something and roll somewhere useless. In VATS, that grenade is definitely gonna get caught on his legs. It's also useful for closer range snipes. Let's say you've got your Anti-Material rifle out and a deathclaw that just won't die is running at you. Once it's at a certain distance, VATS is a guarenteed hit whereas free-fire may fail if the Deathclaw takes a sudden unexpected turn or something. I also use VATS a lot if I have an SMG in a close-range gun fight. An SMG is perfectly fine in free-fire mode, but in VATS you get the chance to land every single shot on the enemies' head.

So sure, sniping is far better in free-fire, but VATS still has it's uses for explosives and for close-range fights where an opponent may make sudden movements/you want EVERY shot to be a headshot.
I think the main complaint is that I'm sure there are some people who prefer the RPG style to the FPS style, and honestly, I dunno how successful a full VATS playthrough would be, simply because you can't snipe (Trigger discipline is a must for VATS) and the Mojave has a lot of locations that absolutely demand sniping, as well as a couple where you have 5 people lined up with their guns aimed at you as the fight starts, and if you go into VATS, they'll definitely all land their hits on you and you're dead.

LOL, I am one of those very few who liked Morrowind's combat!


I enjoy a more RPG feel. But don't get wrong, Sniping free hand is really fun too. I just get flashbacks to Doom/Quake when I pull out a shotgun and start blasting point blank free style!

Still, I think the Sniper Perk should have given you really good bonus in VATS when using a Very Low spread weapon. Right now it mostly benefits full auto weapons close up.

Do people actually want to snipe with VATS? You're already at an enormous advantage at those long ranges. If you crouch, your enemies are likely completely unaware of you, meaning everything that is not a cazador is walking at a very slow pace or idling. If you hit the target with weapons with the appropriate range/FoV zoom, you score astronomical damage.

VATS isn't really a "mode" of play; it's a limited-resource power up. When you use it, you move about six times the speed of everything else, have damage resistance, and can instantly re-orient to any number of targets. While it's true that the weapon's min spread does go up in VATS, your weapon is oriented directly at the center of the body part you're trying to hit, completely eliminating the human error of manual targeting. Of course, VATS does still have problems dealing with collision interference and with minimum range on long weapons, but those issues are essentially the same in F:NV as they were in F3.

In F:NV, VATS is best used as a short and mid-range antidote to fast-moving melee enemies (e.g. deathclaws, cazadores) or a mob descending upon you.

Vats vs Cazadores = 1 very dead courier lol

If they're already aware of you and inbound, you're going to do a lot better VATSing them than attempting to track them in real time. The speed advantage alone is enormous.

I find just screaming and shooting like mad works better, when you use vats you kill one or two and then get hit 4-5 times before the vats sequence ends lol

No? Vats to the cazadores' wings is pretty much How to fight Cazadores 101. Add an Assault Carbine and they're toasted. Always. Toasted.

Long distance snipe - no. Mid range hit yes. Especially after you have invested numerous perks to boost your VATS score. Part of the problem is the VATS perks only boost VATS. Given the very limited number of perks in FNV this makes taking VATS perks a poor choice. Always easier to pull out a full auto weapon a mow them down.

And splitting Action Boy into two perks hurts something fierce. As does nerfing Grim Repears. In F3 you could take some long range VATS shots because you would regen your AP with Repears. Worked very well with the Concentrated Fire perk. Now, you are almost always better waiting until they are right on top of you before switching to VATS.

VATS is now a way better way to do things rather than getting 95% on a super mutant on the other side of the wasteland its actually been made fair to the game so you get 95% close (Usually) 60% medum range (Usually) 30% far range (Usually) and 10% at almost out of sight one thing i dont like is that is if a foe is behind a bush you get 0% chance to hit them. :poke: :gun: :ahhh: