I really hope you intentionally used "schematics" instead of "semantics".

For a variety of reasons.

MK - droppin' knowledge like a clumsy librarian.

MK - saying nothing, implying everything.

I feel that Vivec is not necesarily evil as the kids version of evil, like a laughing bad guy grouping at his privates while planning ways to rule the world, hes just a guy who realized at the crucial moment that he had more to win by either finishing of Nerevar or doing nothing to help him and letting him die. I believe that thats the real reason why Beth left that little tidbit so obscured, even if he didnt finish him off he didnt do anyhting to help and he certianly benefited from it. He got what he wanted, the rule of Morrowind and worship as a god, even though he knew he was a fake all along. He didnt do it for his people, his land or whatever, it was the way he figured to get all the power he ever needed. He helped Nerevar just because he knew that if he opposed him he would be destroyed and prefere to be on his good graces while the other fools pseudogods got whacked. I remeber Ghaleon the main bad guy from Lunar and he certainly sounds alike Vivec, his best friend died fighting their worst enemy and he kind of went a bit crazy from the experience...

The Tribunal weren't false gods. In the Elder Scrolls mythos, they were gods. It's better not to judge them by the standards of Judeo-Christian godhood; they're more like the Greek gods with their human motivations.

Unconscious act.
German here! :facepalm:

No, no, no... it was Sheogorath's Intervention. DAMN YOU SHEOGORATH! DAMN YOU AND YOUR- *gets Wabbajacked into a squid*

I would have to say that it is the Moon's fault. After all, what kind of sentient rock gets tricked into whipping itself towards a city full of innocent people, only to be stopped and hollowed out into a prison for dissident priests?

Therefore, I blame the moon.

Well, the only reason Morrowind was assimilated was because the Empire was in a position to wipe them all out, as almost all the houses realized the fight was pointless and sided with Vivec in becoming an Imperial province. And then Vivec settled it with the Emperor.

With Vivec there is no good or evil. It's all shades of grey. Sure he probably killed Nerevar but he did so much good with his powers. He helped thousands over the years which is more than the deadra ever did. So knowing that can he be called evil? I don't think so, but neither is he good. It's somewhere in the middle.

vivec may not be truly evil. but he was definitely two faced. and it showed.

So the question then becomes "what marks someone as evil?"

If we break someone down into 3 parts we have:
1. Intentions
2. Actions
3. Results

There can be no denying that many of his actions and many of the results are evil, in the sense that he intentionally caused or enabled harm to fall on innocents. So we know that he does evil things and evil things happen as a result of things he does. So do we assume that evil/good is a scale? Do more good than evil and we simply ignore the evil? Or do evil actions/results taint the whole making him evil with some good actions/results? Then there is the highly dubious tactic of grading someone exclusively on their Intentions. Do we accept the "As long as he wanted good things to happen, all of his evil actions and results are forgiven" argument?

The tribunal were false gods, as their worship was based on cult of personality. By what authority did they deserve worship? Daedra and Aedra are the embodiment of ideas, sometimes primal ideas (what we call their "spheres"). The Tribunal on the other hand don't embody any sought of sphere or fundamental idea, as true gods do, they are mortals made powerful (and immortal) by artifice.

Dr. Manhattan, the Silver Surfer et al are powerful and can do godly things but in essence they're not gods, as a god is supposed to be at least the personification of an idea.

Vivec can't really be praised for stopping the MoT from falling. The whole reason it was aimed towards Vvardenfell was because Sheogorath was angry with the Tribunal, so he tricked the meteor into heading that way. At least that's what I think happened. I read it somewhere.



Actually, each of the three Daedra formally worshiped by Dunmer are anticipations of each member of the Tribunal. Their worship was replaced when the Tribunal changed history and became "gods".

Vivec - Mephala
Almalexia - Boethia
Sotha Sil - Azura

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Anticipations


EDIT: messed up phrasing. fixed

Wow. I guess that Vivec was not as much of an ass as I saw him as. Most of the things he did were for the good of the majority, even if it meant persecuting the minority. Huh.

Sorry, but I completely disagree. The Tribunal were just as powerful as any of the Aedra and Daedra (as shown by the fact that azura couldn't curse them directly), and they are far nicer. The Aedra are very unlikely to respond to your prayers (because they can't under most circumstances) and the daedra...well, their just as likely to help you as hinder you. I fail to see how either of those are "true gods", especially when they are actually extremely limited and can be transcended by mortals. With the Tribunal one gets a personal connection (which you don't get with the Aedra) without giving up your soul, dying or being ignored (daedra). Plus, Vehk gave the world instructions on how to transcend both the aedra and daedra.

Well, Alamenxia did go insane. As for Vivec, there is Lie Rock, but it was the dunmer's own fault for letting it crash as they forgot wuv, which held back their destruction.

Something occurred to me just now. I wonder if the Dunmer brought the moon's fall upon themselves by building the Ingenium and powering it with souls. Could it be that the moon wouldn't have fallen if not for their tampering? Talk about a self-fulfilling prophecy, if so.

By the definition of philosophical hedonism, he would in that context be viewed as good, since the sum of his actions, both good and bad, result in the net gain of happiness across the board.

1. Vivec kills Nerevar and becomes a god through profane means. Bad-
2. Vivec forms Temple, giving structure and meaning to the lives of tens of thousands of Dunmer. Good+
3. Vivec convinces Dunmer to surrender to Empire, rather than be wiped out, saving thousands of lives. Good+
4. Vivec persecutes a small number of Dissident Priests to prevent them from destroying the faith. Bad-

We would have to make a listing of all his sins, but in the end we would find that Vivec, when performing his evil actions, performed them on a small number of individuals, as opposed to his good actions, which were performed on thousands of individuals.

I don't think that a tally would have him on the positive side, all things considered. Especially since almost every one of his "good" deeds included at least one "evil" deed along with it.
Take for example, your point #2. Sure, he created the temple, but that did not create "structure" or "meaning", it simply changed the current structure and meaning to what he wanted, plus, by doing so he also created an oppressive regime that is guilty of genocide, corruption, and persecution of free thought.

Not necessarily. The inquisitors might have been a minority within the Temple. Most of the priests and laypeople were probably good people. In the game "Oblivion", a former Temple priest mentions that he misses the Temple's attention to the needy now that he is a priest of the Imperial Cult.

True, many of the Ordinators were intolerant jerks, but I think the majority of the believers were probably ordinary people with a simple faith. Also, it has been speculated that the Ordinators were Almalexia's muscle -- Vivec may have been virtually a prisoner by the time the player character visits him.

It wasn't just the Ordinators though. The entire Temple structure was guilty of those things, the Ordinators being the most vocal and violent in their methods.

Now that the Temple has apparently collapsed (the ex-priest in "Oblivion" refers to a Collapse at one point), maybe the believers will go back to basics in their religion now. If the refugees build temples after they flee to Solstheim following the Red Year, maybe there will be less hierarchy this time.

I agree with that. The core tenets of ALMSIVI speak of helping the helpless, not punishing the heretic. From the history of the Dunmer pre-Tribunal, it seems that the Dunmer have always had a drive to separate and single out. The Great Houses existed before the Tribunal, as well as House War, and even Veloth encouraged the veneration of the Daedra who became the Anticipations. I point this out because Mephala, one of those Daedra, includes secrecy and murder in her sphere, something the Dunmer appear to be quite comfortable with.

What this all amounts to is that the Dunmer as a people seem to have had a natural tendency to the actions that are perceived as evil, such as murder and scorn. In this light, it might be best to judge Vivec's actions not against our own preconceived notions of right and wrong, but against those of the Dunmer. They believe that murder and shunning others are perfectly acceptable parts of their lives, and Vivec seems to be acting within that accepted range of behavior. Where he deviates in his doctrine is not shunning the weak, but helping them. Which speaks to the benevolent aspect of his Temple.

Evil is subjective