Hey all.
I played Morrowind a few years back, but never really finished it (didnt even come close). Anyway I decided to play through it all the way, so I installed it and have been playing it for the last few days.
This time around I have found myself very interested in the history and lore of Vvardenfell, and I was reading some history about how Vivec, Sotha Sil, and Almalexia betrayed Lord Nerevar in order to become immortal.
Now I am by no means a lore expert, but here is my question: is Vivec evil? When I played the game last time, I always thought he was a holy, goodhearted character. But after reading about it, it seems that he was the opposite. Was there a good reason why Vivec betrayed Nerevar? Or is he really just a selfish evildoer?
Thanks all!

Vivec is neither good nor evil in my books.

He most likely brtrayed Nerevar, however with his god powers he has done alot to help and protect his people.

It's a case of what would you do?

Would you honor Nerevar's Words, but eventaully leave the Dunmer leaderless and fractured once more, or would you unite them (mostly) and become immortal, but by doing so break your oath to Nerevar? What's the worth of your oath to a dead man when held in comparison to the future of your people?

It's more of a grey issue- personally, while I don't like what Vivec, Sotha Sil, and Alma did, but they did it in a way that actually made the Dunmer stronger than they were beforehand. Remember; Morrowind is (as far as I know of) the only province of the Empire that wasn't conqured outright. I doubt they could've pulled that feat off if they were still in Ashlander-style traditions and thought patterns.

Even still- Vivec was the only one of the Tribunal who still cared for his people- Sotha Sil eventually retreated to his Clockwork City, never to be seen again, and Almalexia couldn't take being seen anything less than a Goddess. Vivec, at least, still tried to lead his people until the end, and only cared about their faith in him because it holds up the Ghostfence.

Now, here's a question for y'all... if Vivec loses his god power (or is killed), why doesn't the Ministry of Truith crash into Vivec City? Supposedly, Vivec's power keeps it up there.

Vivec's neither good nor evil imo, he is portrayed more as a dashing rogue than a hero, flawed yes but generally grounded in respect for his people unlike Almalexia. But with less of a guilt riden existence than Sotha sil, if I was to tag him in a d&d alignment scale it would be neutral-neutral-good but that just may be me.

It would have been harder to conquer Morrowind if they kept their ashlander state of mind because nomadic tribes are always the hardest people to assimilate into an empire.

Anyway, what Vivec did, the way I see it, was to set in motion the chain of events that eventually led to the utter obliteration of all Morrowind.

Actually, the Empire probably wouldn't have integrated the local Ashlanders. They'd just build forts everywhere, call in a few "Civilized" Dark Elves to run it, and call it done, once they've pretty much shown that the Ashlanders can't beat them.

Basically, turn Morrowind into a colony of the Empire, instead of a self-run province. Maybe it would've been split between Argonia and Skyrim, or just become an extension of Skyrim.

And how did Vivec eventually destroy Morrrowind? He did set in motion a chain of events that could've toppled the Empire, not just Morrowind, as Dagoth Ur draws his powers from the same source as the Tribunal, and was using it to build Lorkhain Mk. II. If the Tribunal destroyed the heart instead of using it, Dagoth Ur would never have come back in the first place. And, of course, the Empire would have an army of Akavir soldiers reigning in from Morrowind, unchecked and unmolested. But that's another story entirely.

I have never believed that Vivec and the Tribunal (or for that matter Dagoth Ur and even the Dwemer) were intrinsically evil. Access to the Heart of Lorkhan and the Tools of Kagrenac corrupted an otherwise benevolent vision. By declaring themselves god-kings the Tribunal had access to developing political institutions that they could chart the course of. However the Chimer later Dunmer were
extremely intolerant in matters of religion which Vivec later regrets.
Dagoth Ur on the other hand, is driven mad by the power of the heart and the tools. He is driven mad and banished. He can only fall back on the erstwhile dream of the Dwemer to construct a new Numidium and establish a basically Dwemer vision of theocracy.
If Nerevar had survived Red Mountain how would he have behaved? Given the source of power and the ability to tap it would he have kept his vow to Azura? What would the Dunmer state have looked like ruled by Nerevar?
There is more to say.

Personally I have never killed Nerevar but I've tried to find his wisdom. Almalexia and Dagoth Ur are menaces that fail to believe in humility but I have always regretted the necessity of killing them.
Hope this discussion continues for a while.

answer to that

read the infernal city, it tells what happens, for some reason i cant find the spoiler tag at the moment so i can post it here.

I've been typing out a response trying to explain what evil is for about 20 minutes now, but I just can't explain it. There isn't much that is evil, as usually everything has motive, perspective, and belief. Evil is intentionally discontenting others at a high degree. Not wearing a tie to work just to piss off your boss doesn't count. Going to a mall and shooting a dozen people just so they die is evil. But then, that's where motive, perspective, and belief come into play. What if the shooter shot up the mall because he believes his god told him to do it? Does that make him evil? Traveling back in time and killing Stalin when he's just an infant, is that evil? I think it's tricky to explain. Remember the Joker from the Dark Knight? He was pretty much evil. The hospital scene explains his motives, which can be seen as borderline evil.

Now you have to look at Vivec's motive, perspective, and beliefs. He conspired to kill Nerevar with the Tribunal in an attempt to gain divine powers. The motive, perspective, and belief is decided by the player.

Now that's just one act by Vivec. Is he a completely evil person? Some may say he cares for his people. But why does he do it? Glory? For their better good?
They're all thing decided by the player.

Man, I wish I could express myself better. I feel like I can't describe my feelings here, but I think you get the basic gist of what I'm trying to say.

Supposedly, Vivec never killed Nerevar- Nerevar, as I understand it, was mortally wounded after his fight with Dagoth Ur. The whole "Tribunal Killed Nerevar" was a story made by Nerevar's Shield-Bearer (who probably wasn't present, and must've liked Nerevar alot to concoct this story) and passed onto the Ashlanders as the "truith."

Of course, Vivec tells one story, the Ashlanders tell a different, and Vivec gives you both sides of the story, basically saying "Believe which one you will." We're never given a true chance of who's telling the truith, as neither side gives any real supporting evidence. However, IMO, I belive that Vivec didn't murder Nerevar, otherwise he probably wouldn't have given you both sides of the story and say "Choose which one to believe." Of course, this assumes that Vivec doesn't have a hidden suicidal agenda...

But you're right, evil is basically purposely being malicious, with an intent to hurt or kill others for no greater reason than personal gain.

I've never heard that before.

Its a tuff cookie to answer, We dont really know that The Tribunal murderd Nerevar, In my opinion they shouldnt have used the tools in the first place, dishonoring Nerevar and going against Azuras wishes, Using the heart of a "dead" god was profane indeed, But the other side of the coin is they made up for it, Helping the people of Morrowind from many disasters makes the scales balanced. But they are punished in the game, There powers striped and The Temple's eventual fall, Plus two of there number having being killed, one being by Nerevar's Reincarnation.
They paid the price

Vivec's leads a charmed life, gets what he wants, and is cool and arrogant for it.

You're right in that the Tribunal didn't kill Nerevar, but Vivec did.
As he says in his trial:

"As Vehk and Vehk I hereby answer, my right and my left, with black hands. Vehk the mortal did murder the Hortator. Vehk the God did not, and remains as written. And yet these two are the same being. And yet are not, save for one red moment."

And again in the sermons:

"He was not born a god. His destiny did not lead him to this crime. He chose this path of his own free will. He stole the godhood and murdered the Hortator."

Which also speak of "FOUL MURDER" in Lesson 36. He even says in the sermons that he's going to kill you as well:

"The ruling king must know this, and I will test him. I will murder him time and again until he knows this."

Even in-game:

"We did not murder Nerevar... You want to chide me... why did I murder Nerevar?"

Thanks for the quotes, Luagar. The Tribunal was within the Dunmer tradition of sanctioned murder, also.

Good. Evil. Such things matter not to me. It just felt good killing that half-golden jerk.

And he did murder Nerevar time and again in his way, and you find them in the Cavern of the Incarnate, until he understood enough to succeed in killing Dagoth Ur and freeing the tribunal from their cursed immortality and the Dunmer from their stagnant apathy.

I believe that Vivec was a good man who did an evil thing with noble intentions, and then spent the rest of his unnaturally long life trying to atone for that deed by doing everything in his prodigious power to help the Dunmer people. So to the question "is Vivec evil" I would say "no."

I think he was evil. :foodndrink:

Not good, not evil. Just self-serving. This can benefit others, and be misconstrued as magnanimity/benevolence.

Jealousy gets you nowhere.

NO! The answer is you wanted to kill him because he's an elf!

Yes, but in a cool way.

And he was following the Dunmer way. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KlingonPromotion

I might generate some hate by saying this, but I believe that Vivec did kill Nerevar, but not out of self-service or malice. Think of his situation: You and your fellow councilors tried to tell your master that the Dwemer were making weapons and performing profane acts. He says "No, their king is my friend, and they wouldn't do that." He keeps rejecting your counsel, until he acts too late, and war results.

(Some will notice that the Tribunal were demanding war from the beginning, but honestly striking sooner when Numidium was less complete would have most likely had a different result than striking when they did.)

Near the end of this war, he has the enemy's tools in his hand, and instead of acting immediately and either destroying them or taking them away to study them, he says "No I need to check in with everyone first."

So he lets Voryn Dagoth, your comrade, hold onto them, who gets corrupted and ends up fighting with Nerevar, who ends up killing Dagoth.

At this point, you must be thinking "This guy is not only going to lead his people into destruction, but he's going to kill us too!"

So you take matters into your own hands, kill him according to the traditions of the Dunmer, and instead of leaving your people leaderless and lost, decide to break your oath to your former master and use the tools to become the ultimate leader for your people.

It can be said that Vivec acted with everyone's best interests in mind, and that perhaps he did feel deep remorse for what he did to Nerevar. Look at all the veiled references to his murder in both the sermons and his dialogue. Also, his line when you ask why he made people suffer seems especially poignant, and carrying some feelings of guilt. "I did the best I could as I saw things." Not "I did what I needed to for my people." Not "I did the best I could." He did the best he could as he saw things. Leaving the door open that he made mistakes, or that he did things that he hated doing.

In that context, I don't believe Vivec was evil. I believe that he was as good as any mortal could try to be, even as a god.

Interesting topic... begs for more lore to be studied.