Water: Looks Better Than we Think? : V - Skyrim

» Sat May 28, 2011 12:20 pm

So, a lot of forum members have pointed out that the http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy297/b_harrison/skyrim/skyrim_gameplay_whitewater.jpg seen in the gameplay trailer feature water effects which could, and should be much better, if only so that they match the surrounding environment better.

That looks like crap to me.

It doesnt look like water at all.

» Sat May 28, 2011 10:56 pm

Need moar GIFs! :whisper:

» Sun May 29, 2011 1:59 am

Funny how the works isn't it? People were so eager to bash that shot of the river it's like they completely tuned out the rest of the trailer where water was shown. It was hard watching that previous thread go on as it did as you were trying so hard to show them what they were missing.

Did you even read the thread? No one was complaining about the overall look of the water in the game, in fact, they were praising it. They were complaining about the rapids specifically.

» Sat May 28, 2011 11:38 pm

http://700stories.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/whitewaterrafting.jpg

the water in the trailer looks pretty good to me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSRtYpNRoN0

same at 1:22 in the trailer.

» Sat May 28, 2011 11:37 am

I actually know how to make a very good rapids in Crysis 3 , I have some sort of I deas that I will test to make rapids look better but in this engine I think this is the best you can do , apart from using tons of particle effects m but this would or could lag a lot the game , specially on xbox compared to pcs , so the best would be having lots of particle sprays , in crysis 1 you have also the optons to make the particles behave phisically like a fluid :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGAiqcZ-Jro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8OMNpJnlnE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNKfsbH1qr8&feature=related

and those are the particle effects that could be enabled with the modern nvidia cards , the problem is this could svck lots of resources m but since Skyrim is a pretty much closed environment with severall closed areas surrounded by mountains then eventually this could mean that severall occluders could be sed to cut out rendering of other elements and isolate somehow the scene allowing the use of more advanced water simulation techniques...

But for large open environments and areas the simple mesh deformed shape with a scrolling texture is the easier way to go atm ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL5ewoVRiRw

» Sun May 29, 2011 12:56 am

That looks like crap to me.

It doesnt look like water at all.

Looks like crap????? :nono: Not at all.

When I see and hear that shot in motion I see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX1GZc4iZ9U&feature=fvwrel

And by the way a still-motion screenshot without the accompanying sound hardly does the river and its rapids, which you said looked like crap, any justice at all!

» Sat May 28, 2011 10:09 am

I love all these secret game developers on this forum, If you know how to implement ''better water'' Bring out your game and show us :rolleyes:

It's not the case that I know how to implement better water, it's that Bethesda themselves know how to do better water, and they did it nine years ago.

» Sat May 28, 2011 10:10 pm

I don't really care how the rapid water look, but I do have one question though: Are the rapids only an aesthetic effect, or can you character get caught in the stream?

» Sat May 28, 2011 6:17 pm

With Phitt's permission (PM me if you've any issue with that, and I'll edit this post

), I'll quote one post of him from a recently locked thread:

What Selbeth said. It's certainly far from being game breaking. It's just a rapid. But it does look bad.

And to be honest I think there are far too many [censored] around here. People who always think everything is better than perfect, no matter what it is, what the screenshots show, what the video shows, what the previews say. No matter how other games look, no matter what previous ES games did wrong. It's all fantastic and Bethesda can do no wrong. That really gets on my nerves. What is this forum for if all you are supposed to do is cheer?

All people here (except for the occasional troll) are looking forward to this game and we all think it will most likely be a great game overall. Why do so many people have a problem with the fact that there will be some less-than-optimal things in the game for sure, just like it was the case in previous games? Do they think the game will be worse just because other people talk about it? Do they feel like it's 'their' game and thus feel like you personally attack them? Discussing things that are problematic or might be problematic makes sense, it might even tell Bethesda were they can improve their game if enough time is left to do so. Always saying 'It's fantastic! Everything is fantastic!' doesn't help anyone and if I were a developer and would read posts by certain people I would think the people who play my game are idiots who would even be besides themselves with joy if http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-C7lHLFLU8&feature=related was the first in game trailer for Skyrim.

...which I wholehearthy agree, and didn't want to keep it away because the thread was locked.

» Sat May 28, 2011 2:23 pm

I don't really care how the rapid water look, but I do have one question though: Are the rapids only an aesthetic effect, or can you character get caught in the stream?

To me it looks like the upland streams in Oblivion - just a visual effect. You couldn't even drown if your head was underwater.

» Sun May 29, 2011 1:56 am

I agree with Phitt's post too.

Unfortunately the poll was shut down early, but before it was it showed that half the people who voted thought the rapids looked odd. No one was saying it was game breaking, but plenty were expressing a desire to see some improvement.

That is a significant number and is a good indicator of a potential issue if BGS wasn't already planning on enhancing the rapids in game.

» Sun May 29, 2011 1:06 am

It's not the case that I know how to implement better water, it's that Bethesda themselves know how to do better water, and they did it nine years ago.

I don't think you can make that determination based on a a few seconds of footage from a trailer, that's showing a game that's more than half a year away from completion.

I am positive I read somewhere that the water works with physics, and that if you stand in it, it will flow around your legs, and it will automatically form waterfalls (I'll be damned if I could remember where, though; it's not in the GI mag). And I really have a hard time thinking they made a bunch of unique static meshes to look like streams and waterfalls, that form-fit perfectly against the world geometry and wind all around the province. I really do believe the water (streams, rivers, waterfalls, rapids, etc) is formed dynamically.

But even if it is completely prefab static meshes, they're more versatile than anything I saw in Oblivion. In Ob, you had flowing water coming out of rocks, going only in one direction, that couldn't be more than knee deep (before being able to ruin the effect by looking under the surface to see it's not water at all), and you could only change the elevation of "standing water" when crossing cells. The flowing water and waterfall meshes that Oblivion had, all looked identical. I don't think I've seen two identical waterfalls or streams in Skyrim's shots, yet.

» Sat May 28, 2011 8:23 pm

I agree with Phitt's post too.

Unfortunately the poll was shut down early, but before it was it showed that half the people who voted thought the rapids looked odd. No one we saying it was game breaking, but plenty were expressing a desire to see some improvement.

That is a significant number and is a good indicator of a potential issue if BGS wasn't already planning on enhancing the rapids in game.

It's definitely not game-breaking.
But it's... eh.. don't know what to call it. Immersive-breaking?

Me and my brother reacted on it immediately, and said "Omg that rapid looked horrible!"
It shouldn't be like that. It shouldn't look so bad that you immediately react on it, compared to everything else in the game.

It's really really nice that they got environment types like big rapids in the game. But they seriously need to look better.
Still, I think Bethesda has gotten our views of it now. I mean, they surely can't have missed our thousands and thousands of complaints. So I'm pretty sure it will be improved before the release.

» Sat May 28, 2011 11:06 pm

Yeah it does, sure it does. I still don't understand the big deal about the water.

» Sat May 28, 2011 11:50 pm

It's definitely not game-breaking.
But it's... eh.. don't know what to call it. Immersive-breaking?

Me and my brother reacted on it immediately, and said "Omg that rapid looked horrible!"
It shouldn't be like that. It shouldn't look so bad that you immediately react on it, compared to everything else in the game.

I agree, and also reacted to it that way. And there must be something wrong if so many people have noticed it, too.

» Sat May 28, 2011 10:01 am

Don't forget the statement:

"Wind stirs the surface of water"

And check this (check it in the trailer also):
http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/8536/skyrim1080p4.jpg I think it looks really great here, aswell as in the cave in the trailer (Small water fall with rapid water that looks really awesome)

I think Bethesda laughs at us at this point: "Haha, wait til you get to play the game" :hubbahubba:

» Sat May 28, 2011 2:14 pm

Don't forget the statement:

"Wind stirs the surface of water"

That's really hard to tell from the gameplay trailer, though. Frankly I'd like to see a video dedicated to show the capabilites of the Creation Engine next - different weather, areas, physics, etc.

» Sun May 29, 2011 12:28 am

Still, I think Bethesda has gotten our views of it now. I mean, they surely can't have missed our thousands and thousands of complaints. So I'm pretty sure it will be improved before the release.

I doubt they can and or want to change how it looks at this point of development. Things like this need time to make and since they considered the rapid is trailer material, they are obviously pleased with how it looks. To me it looks weird, too flat and uniform, like those rocks in the middle of the stream have no influence of how the water moves after the impact. There should be more "noise" and foam where the water hits the boulders.

» Sat May 28, 2011 12:43 pm

Looking at the white water rapids, what I think they need to do is to add some more foam, because it really does look like a flat texture, I'm sorry. It doesn't look realistic (though the small stream looks fina and the still water looks pretty good (though no reflections anywhere?), but I think that could easily be fixed by adding some more froth like how they did the waterfalls, because if you look at rea rapids, the froth does sort of leap out a little as it moves along. http://www.rainbowlodgecambodia.com/pics/Rainy_season_rapids.jpg

» Sat May 28, 2011 12:53 pm

I think uncharted had some of the best water in recent gaming history ( crysis' water looked awesome too, but was too clear in my opinion).

Take a look at this piece of gameplay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3v80N_k9oA&feature=related

I think this scene isn't the best example, but further on there are some genuinely impressive whitewater parts...

Id prefer bethesda made SKyrim's water more like this, as opposed to a 2d animated texture...

edit: some better examples of uncharted's water:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9l1kmD8FHg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4ANg0wstTY&feature=related

» Sat May 28, 2011 9:12 pm

Part 1: The Cave anolysis:
The water in the cave is outstanding, in my opinion. If they really have figured out how to get the water to do its own flowing and it isn't hard-coded, then that's awesome, because the dragon crashing animation illustrated that the terrain is slightly deformable (whether it's 100% deformable or whether it only deforms for dragon crashings is debatable (but there is in one picture of the Autumn forest an indication that one of the trees was broken and fell over, indicating further deformability)). So my point here is that if the water is indeed real-time dynamically operated, whenever we change the ground terrain in some way, the water may indeed change course. That could lead to all sorts of interesting discoveries and events (and possibly Quests requiring that) ... and that would be awesome.

Part 2: The Waterfall anolysis:
The water coming over the falls looks great, it's just missing something: particle animation... for a falls situation, it doesn't look natural to have these flat surfaces moving downward over rocks with no splash. They haven't put the splash factor in yet. So it's still a bit rough. I'm giving them credit and the time to complete their work. Maybe they hope we'll all say that the waterfall is good enough and if so, they won't have to code it any further. But I think it needs some finish work, some particle animations at the rock intersections and maybe the occasional leaping fish, to sell the illusion. Right now you can actually see the seams between the competing layers of animated water. Those seems need to get hidden beneath a small amount of particle spray and random jittering about, or wafting moisture clouds of some kind .... then it will be complete. I think they will do that. Give them some time. But also let them know, as I am right now, that it isn't quite finished yet. Keep going, Bethesda!

The win is VERY strong in this one :toughninja:

» Sat May 28, 2011 4:58 pm

Sure, a screenshot of the rapids looks a bit like a photo of white water. The thing is, in the video the mesh seemed too static, as if only the texture was animated. This, coupled with the milky-white texture (which is the way white water should be, no question) made it look very 'painted-on'.

It's a very minor issue in an awesome trailer, but that's no reason to pretend it doesn't exist.

Some of the reactions here seem to be of the 'you're either with us or with the terrorists' mould... seriously, the nitpicking is just one way of looking forward to a game. It's Elder Scrolls, and therefore ought to be close to perfection.

The rest of the water looks good! I imagine rapids are difficult to do right, so +1 for trying.

» Sun May 29, 2011 2:26 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9l1kmD8FHg&feature=related

This is very beautiful :tops:
I;d totally play that if I had a console.

» Sat May 28, 2011 11:16 am

I think uncharted had some of the best water in recent gaming history ( crysis' water looked awesome too, but was too clear in my opinion).

Take a look at this piece of gameplay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3v80N_k9oA&feature=related

I think this scene isn't the best example, but further on there are some genuinely impressive whitewater parts...

Id prefer bethesda made SKyrim's water more like this, as opposed to a 2d animated texture...

edit: some better examples of uncharted's water:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9l1kmD8FHg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4ANg0wstTY&feature=related

Tha'ts nothjing special , check the links I posted above for Crysis and nvidia graphics ...

» Sat May 28, 2011 8:58 pm

I think people are over-reacting, it is all very fine to critic something, but it really is a bit hard to tell what the water looks like from a trailer especially 9 or so months from release. The thing is everyone is mentioning the rapids, now if Bethesda decided NOT to make the water look like rapid water with the white water texture in abundance, then people would be on here complaining that the water SHOULD be white and frothy! They have tried to do their best to make the water look different here because of the fact it is running quickly and over rocks, you see white water rafting is called that because it is white water

So what do they do? Leave the water clear and hope noone notices, or try their best with their new engines technology to make it look realistic? In the cave snapshot you can clearily see the particle effects from the waterfall on the far right, I think this shows they have worked on their water quite a fair bit not to mention the stream! It looks fantastic IMO, but like I said before it is still early

Btw some people just like to nitpick because that is all they can find fault with in the trailer!