???

That does not sound anything like my point. My point is exactly what it reads. IF you make a character who cannot be helpful, who does nothing but hurt the group is a bad player, no matter how much you want to say "RP"

For example, in D&D, a Fighter with 10 Str, 10 dex, 10 con, 10 int, but 18 chr and wis and only wearing cloth robes adds nothing to the group, he is not being a team palyer, he is being selfish. heck, a "fighter" would never have that low srt anyway, because to be a figher means you were trained, which infers you gained muscle, which means you are stronger then the avergage person.

On the other hand, a figher using 16 str, 16 con, etc, can use the SAME RP, but actually be helpful to the group,.

The wizard who focuses on alchemy can stil lbe good to the group, even if he has few combat spells and feats, because alchemy can help the other players and even make gold to the player.

Eh, that seems like a narrow way to look at it. Especially in a tabletop game, where the GM can adjust things for the type of party/players they have.

(I could see reasons why someone could make a fighter with lower ST and high CH. Very witty & charming dude, but the skillset the player is looking for is the Fighter's, not a Bard, for instance. Heck, I just made a new 5th ed character who picked "Rogue" class, but he's not a Thief, he's a Gnome Tinker.... he can disarm traps/open locks/find secrets because he knows machines and is smart & curious, not because he breaks into places. Just because you picked the "Fighter" class, doesn't mean your character is a soldier & bodybuilder.)

...and I've abandoned characters in previous tabletop campaigns because they were too strong/overpowered. A flawed character can be more interesting to play than a perfect one.

But regardless, most of this discussion is based around multiplayer setups ("does the character contribute to the group", etc.) Fallout isn't an MP game. Nor was Skyrim.

but you can MAKE a bard with a melee focus. A fighter, a class with EVERYTHING based around fighting in melee and NO social skills to speak of makes no sense. a Fighter with 10 str and 10 dex HAS no skillset, it cannot do anything, as EVERYthing it can do is based on those two stats, if you wanted to have the "fighter skillset" that person would not be stupid enough o have 10 str and 10 dex.

also, a game can NEVER be balanced if everyone has a decently well-made character, and there is that one guy in teh back who made a worthless garbage character, no matter WHAT the DM does, the group will not be equal, either the decent characters will stomp everything easily or the bad player character is going to die fast.

Your character, that tinker is still useful to the group, he can disarm stuff for the group, make stuff for the group, etc.

a fighter who is not good at fighting cannot help at all

my original point was that you are NOT a bad player for wanting to min-max, that you can roleplay just fine, doing so, to think otherwise is stupid. For example, i HIGHLY doubt your Tinker character had a low int and unlikely to have a low dex, because your character's backstory is ABOUT being smart and dexterous enough to actually BE an adventuring tinker. what this means is that you character IS optimized to some extent.

I kind of agree with him, But can also see Pkmn12's point. You get svckered by a gm (who just love telling how awesome looking it is) once into putting on some fancy cursed armor or wielding a cursed sword once. It kinda makes you wonder man is that super kick ass looking stuff really as good as old rusty I am wearing or ole nick my longsword.

If you're worrying about min max and meta, you're by definition not roleplaying. Doing what is in your interest and what you would do is not RP. Role play by definition is to create or be given a character and then do what is in their interest and prerogatives, based on what you created in the first place. It's effectively acting. It was the definition before cGaming (or even table top for that matter) and is still the definition today.

And just like the actor can't say, "oh I want his lines and that character's backstory and this other character's something or other, because they're better than mine" the role player can't say I want all the min max best meta equipment, and still be in character. It's not who you are, it's not your role. Unless of course your character's prerogative is to have the best of everything etc, but that's only one character archetype - a dull Master of All trades character. And that's fine if you want one character and you're an action/adventure gamer, but this is an RPG. And giving RP options like viable lower stat gear/weapons is great, because it adds diversity and is COMPLETELY OPTIONAL.

This person or that person can still min/max without trying to ruin the RP for everyone else, hence why these things are optional.

And that's not even getting into characters that you've decided won't be all that powerful, won't be the "Hero of the day" etc. A character that won't go through all the things, certain people feel is mandatory. Either because he lacks the skill/power or has no interest in this or that.

In my opinion it is you who is metagaming and power gaming in wanting your clothes to protect as well as power armor so that you can look the way you want.

I want power armor to provide substantially more DR than any clothes could possibly provide, but also to be not stealthy at all.. If you want to stand toe to toe with a deathclaw you need to be wearing good armor. If you want to be stealthy you need to wear something suitable for stealth, something light in weight or specially made for stealth. You should need to use the right gear for the job. You should be able to overcome/avoid the deathclaw with multiple game play styles. You can fight it straight up, stealth past it, pick a lock or computer to open up an alternate route, snipe it, or whatever options there are. You should not be able to walk up to it in you t shirt and punch it to death. If you want to do that just set the difficulty to easy.

If I roleplay a techno ninja type I'd want to have a high agility, perception, luck and intelligence and tag unarmed/melee, energy weapons and stealth. This makes my build efficient and I can then roleplay a techno ninja. To me this is not powergaming but playing and building to my strengths.

To role play must one make a character that is unsuited to his goals? Are only stupid wizards role playing while wizards with high intellect are power gaming?

You don't know what metagaming is.

I have never said I want clothes to protect like armor. Not even sure how someone could get that from what I've said. I point out Bethesda has always allowed you to be viable with lower tier items, no where do I say I want those items to be anything other than what they already are. Actually I say the exact opposite, that I don't need high ratings on items to be viable. It's all in the role play and viability itself is subjective based on your character and their prerogatives. And the word viable does not mean "the same as."

DnD isnt about "winning", it about enjoying an adventure with friends, so long as everyone is having a good time then it is a successful campaign. Min-maxing in a PnP game is like using robot legs with jump-boots for hopscotch...

inb4

'nvde mod' and a Fat Man

This, makes perfectly sense for you character to prefer a better weapon or armor than the one he is currently using. Npc does after all.

Games plays with the item strengths for balance: rifles are far stronger than pistols in real life and have far longer range, same goes for pistols over melee.

And for the look too: raider armor, forsworn armor and traditional female fantasy armor would have close to none armor rating.

Why should not the player do the same.

how do stats have ANY effect on a characters backstory, so no you are wrong, and your argument does not even make sense. Role paly is giving your character backstory and a personality. Min-maxing/optimization is making the character not useless in terms of stats.

THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER ANYONE WHO THINKS SO HAS NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT!

how can people enjot it when the moron over in teh corner who is playing a worthless character only defends his wizard with 10 int with "because i am rping him" how can that wizard with 10 int possibly be enjoying himself when he can od NOTHING to help or participate in a game where the other players outclass in in EVERY way.

Who are YOU to decide that a character is "worthless"?

(I also continue to wonder why you keep bringing up group games, and tabletop games with active GMs. When we're talking about options in a single player computer game.)

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Even in Fallout 3 and Oblivion, you could make lower-end armor be as effective as higher-end stuff (well, you could make your overall character as effective). It just took more work - DR perks, armor enchantments, etc. Sure, not as effective as Power Armor, but still effective enough to be used at high level.

(Also, based on what we've seen from FO4 so far, Power Armor seems like it'll be more of a special case, not used all the time like regular armor)

edit: one of the things I've always loved about tabletop games with GMs is that a good GM can tweak the game to match their players. Have a group full of powergamers with superbly combat-effective characters? Turn up the power on those encounters that the module has. Have a group of players who prefer RP'ing and diplomacy? Switch stuff around so there's more opportunities for that. Have a group of players who aren't nearly as good with/don't care as much about numbers, and are therefore not combat-monsters? Turn down the power on encounters. Unlike digital games, tabletop RPGs have infinite on-the-fly variability.

edit 2: Personally, I've always viewed these games similarly to novels & movies - the Action Hero doesn't generally turn more-and-more tank-like as he progresses through the story, he continues to wade through ever-increasing-evil with the same Barbarian Loincloth, or Leather Jacket & Fedora, or ripped & dirty Commando fatigues. Sure, in a "find the magic MacGuffin" plotline, the hero will upgrade to whatever that item is.... but it's not some overall gear upgrade that ends with everything he started with replaced with New And Improved.)

Sure, there's games that are all about the gear grind - Diablo-style games, for instance. In those, I happily churn through stuff - but you don't make a character in those, you just pick a skillset/playstyle. The game is about finding loot, not the story or the non-existent RP. And while, yes, there's loot & gear in Beth games, they're not the sole focus. There's more to it than that. More options, more ways to play. And that's a great thing.

Lets be realistic, clothes would be nice fighting deathclaws, unless you wear very heavy armor= power armor it will kill you so fast in melee that armor rating is irrelevant. Power armor has many downsides.

Being sneaky and fast is more important.

Soldiers did not start wearing combat armor until it became good enough to have an effect who offset the downside.

In real life I would climbed up in an tree or similar with an heavy rifle and start shooting at them who is easiest in clothes. For an cave I would mine the entrance then try to pull them out, this also works very well in fallout.

Again Fallout is an game where weapon and armor is balanced to make many play styles viable. Why does all modern armies uses assault rifles with other weapons is for special use?

Heh. All this discussion of D&D made me want to check back on the "old school" ways of character creation.... and yeah, even by 2nd Edition AD&D, the first method of rolling stats was "Roll 3D6 for your Strength. That''s what it is. Roll 3D6 for your Con. That's what it is.... etc, etc, etc This will typically give you characters with stats between 9 and 12." Also, the minimum stat requirements for the basic classes (Fighter/Thief/Cleric/Wizard)? Nine.

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Just to clarify, I'm not looking to make street clothes as strong as PA. But it is nice, as an option, to make lower-end armors still be viable later on. I didn't have leather armor in Skyrim that was as strong as improved Daedric.... but I was able to make mid-range Light armor be "good enough", and avoid the hell out of wearing that ugly Dragon stuff.

And if we go back to the original OP:

Again, not asking for Power Armor. Just "good enough". Still usable.

edit: I'm also reminded of a mod someone eventually made for Oblivion - a pair a boxes you could use to graft any stats onto any armor piece. So you could have the power of Daedric (for ex) on whichever appearance. And it kept balance, because you still needed to actually have the armor - so you couldn't make your Leather as strong as Glass until you'd actually acquired that Glass armor. Perfect!

If your idea of enjoyment is "You must be optimized or else we will lose at DnD" then you have missed the point of that hobby. You sound like the only true "that guy" PnP games have: the min/maxing try-hard who wants to throw 50 fireballs a turn and insta-kill all the enemies even though that is extremely boring for everyone else including the DM. If a player in the group wants to run as something odd or inefficient then that is their choice, not everyone comes out of the womb a perfectly formed soldier who instantly graduates warrior college. Maybe they want to try something new and interesting instead of facerolling the entire dungeon

No, set it on ultra-easy or whatever. Skyrim balance was totally screwed because you could hop around with your very first armor at endgame.

This is an issue in MMO, as you tries do do hard group missions its required that everybody is pretty optimized to not have the play run into an wipe feast.

Note that this is overrated and tend to be based around the consensus of the best buids, an ESO guild managed to do even the hardest dungeons nvde, yes they are good players who do the hardest raids but show that skill is probably more important than gear.

once again, people like you ignore everything that proves you wrong. Optimization has ZERO to do with being the best, what it MEANS is being useful to the group in some way. A warrior that has 10 str and 10 dex is worthless and will do nothing in or out of combat, a wizard with 6 int is going to be worthless, unhelpful, and only going to drag the group down.

A game is not fun at all when you are not helpful to the group in ANY kind of way.

Well context is a factor as well. In a competitive multiplayer game "optimum builds" will always be a priority because people really want to win at any cost, but in a team-based experience revolving around fun it serves no purpose to place victory above all else. In a single player game like Fallout it is about letting any kind of player play how they want rather than trying to bottleneck everyone into the same end-result like an MMO does

Helpful how? What is the less combat-excelling player doing to "bring you down"? You sound like the worst person to play DnD with ever, it isnt about facerolling all the enemies, it is about doing something with your friends. Im sorry that you require perfection in order to crack a smile during a group hobby, any good DnD campaign has very little combat and revolves more around choices and interaction with the world the DM has set up. If you have such a problem with another person choosing to be imperfect then you are better off doing a solo campaign so that all the humans being human dont get in your way

it has nothing to do with perfection, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FACE-ROLLING, it is being HELPFUL IN SOME WAY. Why would you choose to be an adventuere or why would a group LET you into their group when more likely then not you are going to be dead meet

A Mage base ENTIRELY around alchemy is not Min/maxed at all, but still HELPFUL. A Sorcerer based more around being social then powerful is STILL HELPFUL, a Rogue with ZERO combat skills but being useful with skills is not minmaxed

NONE of them are Minmaxed, but they are still helpful to the group.

who in their RIGHT MIND would play a WIZARD with 6 int, or a SORC with 10 charisma. you could paly the EXACT CHARACter you want to play with the EXACT same ROLEPLAY, background and everything,

RP and optimization HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER, NEITHER OF THEM take away from the other.

you people need to read and not be ignorant of common sense.

Like i said, READ THE STORMWIND FALLACY, it PROVES you people WRONG COMPLETELY.

here, prove me wrong, give me an example of how a 6 int wizard would make a more viable roleplay then a wizard with 16 int.

I bet you RIOGHT NOW, my characters have a MUCH better backstory and RP then 90% of the people saying "RP has no optimization" OR that your character IS optimized within the confines of that character you have made in some way without you realizing it.

I agree, the issue with dungeons is that you are limited to an 4-5 man team and the dungeon is designed for this, you will always try an as hard dungeon you are think you are able to or a bit harder

Only done PvP in ESO where everyone is welcome as its no real limit on army size and even an worthless fool can act as an meat shield but know small scale PvP suffer even worse from this.

And I agree in an group effort with other players you are supposed to conform as in any other group efforts.

Totally irrelevant in an single player game.

And the armor and weapon stats in Fallout is no way realistic as the main objective is fun and balance not realism.

I would find a drunken ex-archmage who cant string together a good spell anymore 100% more fun to play beside than an uber-wizard who can conjure a supermegafireballofLEETness. Proven wrong

but as an archmage, even an ex-one, it means they would have high int score, or otherwise they would NEVER BE AN ARCHMAGE TO BEGIN WITH. the drunkeness has NOTHING to do with int, if anything, it would be a low wis mage. SAME EXACT BACKGROUND, but actually decent to use, even if he chooses spells that are not super helpful all the time, or if he rolls to randomly cast a spell (to simiulate being drunk) it is still a better made character WITH EVERYTHING ABOUT IT THE SAME.

so nope, proves you know noting about roleplaying characters actually.