What dont you understand about "cant string together spells anymore"? I didnt say WHY they were an ex-archmage. Experiencing an enjoyable story > winning a squabble with goblins. You make no sense at all, you have some weird hatred towards anyone who doesnt conform to your standards, if that player with low stats portrays an interesting character then no sane person gives a crap about whether or not they have good stats, since for the 100th time that is not the purpose of DnD. If you NEED that wizard to have perfect stats in order to win every fight then you have set up a very restrictive campaign and are not a creative DM

and why do you NEED to not read what i am saying, i have said NOTHING about perfect stats, just about being helpful, no sane person is going to want a person in their group that does NOTHING except die and adds nothing to the story. YOU make no sense at all, because you CLEARLY have no idea what you are responding to.

that "ex-archmage" is dead in teh first battle, unless everyone else is playing a bunch of idiot mages and fighters who cannot lift a weapon. otherwise, if the campaign is made by the standards of THAT ONE weak character then everyone else will do everything, and teh archamge will sit in the corner contributing nothing in or out of combat.

Let me put it this way, in 3,5, a Half-orc Wizard with 14-15 int IS NOT MIN/MAXED in ANY WAY, but it is still helpful to the group AND adds a great RP. why and how did the half-orc become a mage? what was the reaction of his peers? where was he living? with a orc tribe? or a human settlemant? what was thier reaction to him before and after he was a mage?

GREAT RP, STILL HELPFUL, NOT MIN/MAXED!

Oog only wanted to make his clan proud. The ogre tribe he lived with never had a wizard before, as none had the book-smarts to do it. So anytime the hunters came back with loot, he'd look at the books (usually reserved for kindling) and stare for hours at the squiggly lines and pretty pictures, deperately trying to make sense of them.

When he became old enough, Oog said his goodbyes to his clan, and sought the "high towers" where the Wizards lived. They laughed at the dumb half-ogre at first, but after days of pleading and camping in front of the acadamy, several of the teachers took him in.

They knew Oog could never be a true wizard. But they taught him anyway. And he tried his best yo learn, bless his heart.

When the teachers said they could teach him no more, Oog, armed with a small spellbook filled with simple cantrips and a wand the size of a tree branch, left the acadamy, to make his clan proud...

give him a low chr, and helpful int, and low wisdom, SAME Story, only slightly smarter, able to ACTUALLY do something beyond sitting their, SAME STORY!

that RP does NOT depend on him being somethign with 6 int, it depends on him not able to ever be a great wizard.

I feel like you have only ever played video game style RPGs because in good DnD games there is no "you need this stat to live" nonsense, not every fight has to be "Fireball kills goblin, claymore kills gnoll, arrow wounds zombie". Sometimes you can use the environment to your advantage, or your items, or even your allies/enemies as shields. It is about creativity, a low stat character is not worthless and if they are the 1st to die in the very first fight then obviously a vindictive DM wanted to prove a point which defeats the purpose of a DM's job. You dont stand there like in a turn-based strategy game and take a hit, you do ANYTHING you want.

A low intelligence character is obviously just that: very dumb, and stupidity carries with it certain opportunities. Ogres are generally dumb but can also be mages, they may also do oaf-ish things that change the fight around. I cant believe im explaining the freedom and creative-dependability of DnD to anyone...its like explaining that oxygen goes into your lungs...

The point is that CHOOSING to RP an imperfect character is always more interesting than CHOOSING to optimize for the sake of "victory". Also i have very often played Campaigns where we followed the handbook rule of "random dice rolls = your stats" so we made the best of what our character was given rather than being "the mage who was born a mage and went to mage college and became a mage"

Way to move the goalposts. That RP is reliant because his teachers KNEW they couldn't make Oog a "true wizard". Not good, not great... not even a true one. This RP would then focus on either Oog trying to find ways to make himself smarter through magical means, OR accept that he was never meant to be a Wizard to begin with and multiclass elsewhere.

An ogre with Int over 4 is the most boring thing ive ever heard, you really dont get RP

STORMWIND FALLACY, until you understand it you are ignorant

That ogre who wants to be a mage, he CAN'T, the RP goes nowhere, because he either dies (more then likely) trying or gives up and stops trying to learn, no other options there, no mystery on to what is going to happen

again, that half-orc mage adds A LOT MORE RP becuase he is different from other half-orcs, and orcs and most humans still treat half-orcs badly, so how does this effect him? how do people react? his story is FAR deeper then "idiot who wants to be a mage but can't"

I HIGHLY doubt the person who plays that character is going to have fun just sitting there fiddling his thumbs while the others do everything.

You continue to repeat nonsense like someone who has never actually played a decent session of DnD. Your mage isnt good enough to hit the enemy with their fireball? Aim for the ceiling and cause a cave-in. Seriously this is the simplest thing and the whole point of RP. You also seem to think attack power = damage resistance, just because that Ogre's spell isnt going to kill the enemy this turn doesnt guarantee he will die. If nothing else he is tougher than his frail elf archer teammate and can take a hit for him because he is a good teammate with a heart of gold. You continue to choose "optimization" over RP, which is the meaning of being a try-hard

the OGRE CAN'T CAST FIREBALL, it CAN'T DO ANYTHING in combat, does not have the INT to do so. and yes, no armor + no spells = more then likely DEAD.

You are choosing a story that makes little sense and is not deep over a character who can actualy do something and have a VERY deep backstory.

You sound as someone who has never palyed ANY D&D at ALL.

HOW IN THE WORLD do you think 1e and 2e went? when it was be decent or died in the first round of a surprise combat you never expseted? what about "tomb of horror"?

"Oog no more has spells." *Oog looks at wand* "OOG SMASH!" *rolls intimidate (treated as class skill)*

Will Oog live long? Probably not unless he multiclasses early. Will he multiclass? Maybe.

Will I have fun with the dumb mage who should really be a fighter? You bet your [censored] I will, even if that first encounter ends with poor Oog splattered over ten squares.

It is a sentient being, it can do ANYTHING! You lack imagination on a dangerous level. It can throw sand in it's enemy's face, restrain the enemy's arms, trip and crush their teammate hilariously, try to climb the wall and escape, smack the enemy with it's wand, shout obscenities, take a nap, or throw a tantrum...you sadden me with your 1 dimensional knowledge of DnD

Edit: also Marss keeps suggesting the same thing i do but before i finish my post...

so, a couple hours with a character....then reroll.........yeah, sounds like a great, deep character that everyone will remember.

no, it actually sounds as if you WANT to either not play the game at all, at least not with that group.

It sounds like he wants to have a good laugh with his group of friends as intended while also trying something new and different

but...none of that does anything, unless the palyer is VERY lucky or ignores half the rules, the ogre is not going to roll well on ANY of that, he will trip, fall, snap his neck, get stomped by the goblin, get stabbed in the gut when he hits something with his wand.

Yo usadden me with your OBSESSION with playing a character that WILL die VERY fast, and no one but you will like.

I am done, once again, ignorace of stormwind fallacy. a character with bad stats does not EVER make a good RP, a good RP has NOTHING TO DO WITH STATS, they are COMPLETELY SEPERATE ENTITIES. unless you are too stupid to RP anything.

all you have proven is that you cannot RP anything at all.

Why wouldnt it roll well on any of that? None of those things are Int based. If you make decisions based only on what "will roll best" then once again you are missing the point and just try-harding your way to victory

I dont get it. I can RP (and enjoy it) a really inefficient character while you cannot...but im the one who "cannot RP"...sure...more like "basic logical fallacy"

no skills, a wizard has mostly knowledge skills meaning it HAS to use cross-class skills which means unless you are REALLY good at rolling, it is not going to do very well.

also, thanks for the compliment i DO try hard to make characters last more then a round in the first hour of play, so his story can grow and actually become something.

oh, i could RP ANYTHING AT ALL, but it is not fun. you seem to be under the stupid illsuion that bad stats = good RP, which is stupid, wrong, and nonsense to the highest order.

a GOOD character, with a GREAT Background AND PERSONALITY is going to last longer, and thus devolop as a person way more then teh ogre who cannot actually be helpful at all.

yyeah, it can be fun to play a bad character, but do not act like you expect anything out of it.

no, befitting stats for the character = good RP. A dumb character should have low Intelligence, a slow character should have low Agility/Dexterity, a scrawny character should have low Strength, etc. Playing a dumb character but having 18 Intelligence just so you can be a better mage is NOT RP, it is meta-gaming absurdity. DnD is about having the creativity to solve problems through unusual means because unlike a video game you have no restrictions on your actions in DnD

where do you get this minmax garbage from?, i MENTIONED A (3.5) HALF-ORC WIZARD, that is as FAR WAY from complete and total min/max you can possibly get to.

if you want to paly a dumb character, do not paly a wizard and expect it to amount to anything, instead, use something else.

use a fighter class, or barbarian, but just say your character wants to be a mage. being a "mage" class means you have SOME magical knowledge, which 6 int does not. playing a fighter with low int, and giving him a stick that he is told is a magic wand would be the EXACT same character, but when the ogre just goes to punch something or hit it over the head with said stick., he actually is successful. heck, maybe even allow the player to be given a level 0 spell or two. not going to break the game, and can help the RP.

you seem to be the one caught up on mechanics, MAKING the character a mage, instead of fluffing it a bit.

It contradicts the RP and shows a lack of dedication...you just dont get it. I cant help you understand because you are trapped in some odd dimension of perpetual belligerence. Once again: the worst person to play DnD with ever...ever

what lack of dedication? how is it contradicting the RP? he IS NOT a mage, he never will be. he still WANTS to be a mage, but that does not mean the character sheet has to SAY he is, since he never will be. in NWN2, the dwarf you meet early on wants to be a monk, and is training to be one, he is NOT a monk class at all, up until he actually starts learning how to be one, instead he is a fighter.

because all you can do is say i am bad, instead of actualy giving examples, or any real arguments, i have the feeling you are just raging and have no argument.

How so? How did it effect the game balance for the player to have several different ways (via effort & focus) to get up to 600 Armor value by "endgame"? You still needed a decent amount of armor value (and elemental resistances) to fight high-end monsters, regardless of how you ended up there.