Greetings,

Like anyone, I enjoy adding new stuff to my Oblivion build. I mean, let's face it... there are some really awesome mods out there that add some really cool stuff. That said, I am not a big fan of such mods when they drop a container somewhere in the world that you just have to open up to get all of "the goods". For one thing, it really takes away from whatever the item is when you don't have to do anything to get it... not even spend some gold! For another thing, if you add too many of these types of mods, then parts of Cyrodiil start looking like container drop-zones. I'm not that big into immersion, but jeez! I still don't want all of these containers piling up; it can get ridiculous. And finally, I often see people looking for more stuff to spend thier gold on. More items in the shops would be one solution.

So here is what I am wondering... if someone wanted to take an existing mod, say an armor mod, and turn it into a mod that adds the armors to vendors in Cyrodiil (and removes the "freebie" containers), what would they be getting themselves into? I know permission would need to be given from the mod's creator... but aside from that, is this getting in really deep, or is it a relatively easy thing to do? Any pointers to relevant resources would be most welcome.

Also, would there be much demand for something like this? I know I would welcome it for a number of mods... but that's just me. Maybe most people really don't care? I don't know, but I'd be more than happy to hear opinions on it.

Please let me know what you think if anything about this is interesting to you,
veg

I'd certainly love to see it done, but I'd prefer to see it done at a "high level" way. Rather than have to edit each individual mod which would be highly time consuming, tedious and never complete, I'd like to see a meta mod, or utility (maybe a wryebash feature or equivalent) that scans an esp, imports its weapons/armour/clothing resources and adds together into a single new esp, which in turn adds them to the games levelled lists, or merchant lists and can be bashed into your game.

This would remove a huge number of cluttering esps, as well as in game clutter, wouldn't require modifying anybody else's work (thus no permission issues) and would remove those unimmersive chests-o-loot.

Obviously this would only work for mods which only add simple weapons armour clothing or objects, scripted objects and quests would be lost, but as long as you carefully selected the mods to be processed by it it could be a very powerful utility and save us all a lot of precious load order spaces.

just my two pennies worth...

That's not me volunteering to do it by the way, I've got quite enough on my plate right now...

Yes, that would be much better, to be sure. Admittedly I was thinking of a more modest approach, but this would be preferable by a very wide margin. Leveled lists are a bit of a concern... I have not dealt with them myself, but in the reading I have done it appears to be complicated when dealing with overhauls. That's why I was focusing on vendors... at least for the time being.

Thanks for the input. It seems to lend to at least the idea that this is something people might like to see. And yes, I do know you have your hands full! Makes me appreciate your feedback even more.
veg

...So basically, http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=17557, but for weapons, armor, and clothing? Awesome! Maybe get in touch with Vacuity, maybe he (or she) can give you some pointers.

Well, honestly I was not thinking about anything that ambitious... not yet, at least! I was really thinking smaller. I agree completely with HeX_0ff that a higher level approach would be ideal; I am not really prepared for that just yet, though. Not that I'm not willing to investigate and learn... I am. but I don't want to get too far over my head, especially right out of the gate.

Thanks for the feedback!

One problem with adding to shops is that it can make the merchant's inventory very slow to open if there are ridiculous numbers of items in a category. Then searching through the list of "Armors" to find that chainmail bikini in the right shade of pink to match your eyes takes even longer! I believe there's also a limit on how many items the UI can handle in the dialog.

I'd love to see a mod that let you pick up a catalog of items of a specific type and run through the much smaller list in that with the merchant. The scenario I have in mind is that you go into the shop, and there are a number of catalogs (books) on a table. Activating one shows you an inventory of items - all chainmail bikinis for example - and you choose one from that. In effect the merchant would have more than one inventory of goods, so the count limitations are less of a problem. If multiple inventories can't be done directly it might be possible to transfer the selected item only to the merchant's inventory for sale (Let me get that from the Storeroom).

At its simplest level of implementation, each catalog shows the items from one clothing/armor/item mod only. The ultimate would be an full interchange infrastructure that lets mod authors put their items in the right catalogs.

Probably some gotcha somewhere will make it impossible, but I can dream.

I would be interested. Some things I would like to have out of such a mod:

Existing merchants/new merchants sell some items exclusively. Some items are ridiculously expensive, others may be sold only one day a month (by a unique merchant who, say, appears only the the 21st of each month). Still some items might not appear until you've reached a certain level, or disposition with the merchant, etc...

It would be nice to have a lot of item mods wrapped up nicely in one little esp. There are a lot of fantastic mods out there that might add one set of armor, or a few weapons, or perhaps just a single sword. As such, I rarely have any room for them in my load order.

A problem you might run into would be body mod problems. There is a lot of clothing/armor that was made for specific body mods, so it might prove difficult to make one esp with a mixture of clothing for a mixture of body types. Not to mention, of course, some people are quite picky about what kind of stuff they let into the game. As I see it, there are two solutions here: Include armors that only fit 1 body (such as vanilla or HGEC) or make an ini file that allows people to select any armor/weapon that they so desire.

Most of the item mods that I've downloaded are already in stores or hand-placed in dungeons, there is one that adds items to a crate, and another which adds an item directly to a player's inventory. Of course, there are also numerous modder's resources which could be added into the game via merchants, such as Dwemer Syringe Arrows.

Battlemage Armory (store)
Trolf's Junkyard Collection (store)
Clannfear Shield (world)
Orcish Nobility Shield (store)
Colovian Fur Helm (store)
Dwemer Precision Bow (store)
Dwemer Princess Armor (dungeon)
Dwemer Spectacles (store)
Knightly Armory (new store)
Lich Gear (store, dungeon)
Pale Rider's Nordic Warrior (store)
True Ayleid Armor (dungeon)
Equipable Beards (world)
Vvardenfell Imports (new store)
Nexon's Armory (crate)
Claws and Monk Gear (unknown)
Traveller's Cloaks (store)
Forestlight Armor (store)
Dwemer Cyborg Gauntlets (inventory)
Syringe Arrow (resource)

One possibility I had considered was something similar to the way Adonnay's Elven Weaponry "cottage" works... The inventory is not static; it re-loads every so often (probably every 3 days). His inventory always has a good variety, but it is never the entire collection... to get that, you have to keep going back.


Now that is a cool idea... sounds more like a UI tweak to me, but a good idea nonetheless!


Those are some really cool ideas, too! I especially like the vendor who only comes 'round once a month (s/he must have some really cool stuff!)


Or the third option... the really ambitious Item Interchange-like deal where it doesn't pay any attention to that at all. Instead, you would install the mods you want for your body type, and the new mod would spread the items around through vendors and such for you. (I know I said I wasn't thinking that big, but man it is an attrative notion)


Yeah, me too. But a lot of that is because I just don't download the free container types anymore. I have seen plenty on TESNexus that I'd love to have, but the "giving it all away" approach, combined with the added cluter, have really turned me off to them. I really like the idea of adding resources, though... I had not thought of that.

Thanks!

Creating dynamic catalogs would be great. I am just not entirely sure of any method to compile the list of possible items for sale....... Having only a selection of items show in the catalogs though...... that might be a problem. Maybe instead of being able to purchase any armor from any particular armorer, have random chance that the item is 'in stock', or, the armor would have to make/order said item?

Well, I know that some companion mods have multiple inventories for different purposes (combat, leisure, nightwear, etc). I am also pretty sure that some vendors have more than one chest. Perhaps something similar could be leveraged?


Yeah, that's kind of like what I was saying about Adonnay's mod. And really, when was the last time you went to a store and EVERYTHING was in stock? Ummm, never, I'm guessing? lol!

Perhaps some combination of multiple chests and rotating inventories? Really just spit-balling here...

ooh ooh - i know, if only there was some system where a random selection of goods could be available to a merchant.

Oh yeah there is: Leveled lists

Yes, clearly I have some reading to do! I need to get over the aversion to dealing with them...

BTW, that's a great avatar... your dog?

True.

And it is possible, using OBSE, to dynamically add things to leveled lists. Still have the problem of collecting the list of just WHAT to add though, and then, with the possibility of having a HUGE selection....... you might wander from vendor to vendor for centuries, and never find that perfect shade of pink chainmail bikini you are looking for......

So, once the list is collected..... (the part I don't have a clue how to manage in-game, or even IF it is possible....) What about a couple of different vendor chests? One of items they actually have in inventory (in addition to whatever other chests they have), another for item that they can order, and a third for items they can make? The last two would just be inventory sheets referenced by clicking on the 'catalog'?

Question HeX_0ff: What would such a mod be scanning the ESPs for? I've been thinking about this and I'm just not sure...

If you get a few mins, of course... I know you're quite busy!

Need to scan the ESP to see what the meshes are and what their stats/name is.

Mesh only has very limited information.

OK, so far I'm with you. I guess to be more specific, are there entries in the ESPs that could be used to differentiate them from mods that should not be included? For example, say this mod were created, and when it runs it looks at the ESPs you've got and scans them. Anything already in the leveled lists should be passed over, right? (that's a serious question... sorry for the informal approach). Further, some mods will have items that definitely should not be added to leveled lists. Will a scan be able to glean this kind of info? Or, more accurately, is there information in the ESPs that could be extracted in order to make these decisions?

Thanks for jumping in showler... your input is always welcome.
veg

EDIT: HeyYou, is that the issue you were referring to? Now that I re-read it, it sure seems that way.

I'd imagine that you would select only the mods you wanted to integrate, to avoid duplication, and then it would limit itself to WEAP, ARMR, AMMO, MISC, CLOT records (might be other types as well, but it could easily ignore any records that would be problematic).

edit: Oh, a mod rather than a utility. If it's like II, then all the mods would have to be added as a master to the extraction file.

Gotcha. So, we're probably talking about some sort of hard-coded list of mods that would be recognized. I envision an INI with that info, so that perhaps rebuilding the mod would not be necessary to add in more items. Of course, if you already know which mods you're gong to recognize, might that not eliminate the need for a scan? I mean, if I know I am including Forestlight Armor.esp, then shouldn't I already know what items I want to add from it? It seems like the whole scan idea was to make it dynamic (no hard-coded ESPs).

If I'm really wrong about any of this, please don't hesitate to say so. I advertise my ignorance on a regular basis, so no harm done!

Honestly, I lost track of the conversation flow. A mod like II would probably need a hardcoded list, or an OBSE script with certain standards to test for and a way to scan the ESP.

I was thinking more of a utility that would scan the ESPs and create a composite mod like a bashed patch for items that adds them to the levelled lists (which would in turn get merged into the real bashed patch). Then you would be able to deactivate the original mods and just use their resources.

Yes, that's an idea I had as well. Something like BOSS... an external utility that would do just what you say. But is there enough information in the ESPs alone for said utility to build the composite mod? That, to me, seems to be the deal-breaker...

Depends on what you want to do. If all you want is to duplicate the items to the new file and add them to some levelled lists, it probably wouldn't be too hard (for someone who knows how to program). Bash already recognizes different records, and maintaining form IDs isn't needed because you're creating a new mod using the other mods resource files. Choosing the levelled lists to add them to, and the appropriate levels would require some "standards" to follow... a cuirass with defense X is level 9 and above, one with defense Y is level 15 and above. It would also have to know whether to build it for vanilla, OOO, FCOM, etc. levelled lists, and have a list of levelled lists to work with for each type of game build.

Yes, I think that is all a proof-of-concept would try to do, anyway. Perhaps it could be expanded, but duplicating the items to a new file and then adding them to some leveled lists is the core of the functionality.


No problem there... sounds like pretty standard conditionals.


Ah yes, and this is the part that really gets me nervous. I have no idea what I'd be getting into here. But then, I don't know what I'm getting into anyway. I have some research to do, for sure. But now that I've put some thoughts out there and gotten some feedback, I'm starting to think I'd like to see this happen. If you or anyone else can point me in a direction or two, that would be cool. Otherwise, I am working through the info on the CS wiki, and looking at examples of other folks' work.

Thanks again... it sounds possible...
veg

Sorry, been out for the evening,

but just to catch back up, I wasn't exactly talking about a mod - at least not in the conventional sense. I was talking about something more akin to the bashed patch - i.e. a special esp created by *offline* scanning the selected ones and constructed from their resources in an external utility (like wryebash) that way you wouldn't need all those masters, it would be more flexible and crucially would free up the space in your load order (which was what I was getting at). hat would give you an effect like merging stuff into the bashed patch and deactivating them.

As for making things available in game beyond just adding them to the levelled lists (which incidentally would probably allow random people to sport the gear)? I'm really not sure. In the first instance I'd just be looking for them to exist in the levelled lists, but for a more advanced approach: well maybe that bash-like esp could have an internal array of all the items and you could specifically order one somehow - not quite sure on the interface mechanics of that but i'm sure it would be possible - maybe with some help from kuertee and his menu magic.

I think the key people you need to talk to are hamma, kuertee (maybe), pacific morrowind, and possibly wrye if he's still about. but only if you plan on following my suggestions. If you do we'll have a fantastic and flexible new must-have utility. If not, i'm sure we'll still end up with some useful stuff

Good luck with it however you plan to do it,

And yes that's my dog

I don't know much, but merging these kind of mods together is pretty easy and straightforward with TES4Gecko (click merge button, voila), then deleting the 'cell' and 'container' records in TES4Edit to get rid of the useless entries in the merged .esp; then there's a bit more work to do to add them to the game, but it doesn't seem to be anything complicated. If I understand it right, adding items to levelled lists doesn't cause much mess, it can be sorted out by a bashed patch easily, right? (or even without it? I think only deleting and altering entries in a levelled list can get tricky for compatibility, but adding ones shouldn't be an issue?)
Anyway - add the new goods in the merged mod to a custom list, then add this list to the vendor's levelled lists - there aren't too many of them, and they are clearly labelled as such. OR, if altering these lists is an issue (? as I said, I don't really have a clue of what I'm talking about, honestly), add this new levelled list to new vendor containers you place in selected stores, owned by the vendors. In any case, you'd have to insert several entries of this levelled list (be it in containers, or in various vendor lists) to make sure you have a significant chance of getting at least one or two of these new goods for sale in-game, at appropriate levels. Hmm. Doesn't sound too hard, and doesn't seem like it should wreak havok in compatibility, to me? Am I wrong, or would that do the job?

That would get the items into the game for sale, yes. But its all manual work and NPCs would never have the items.

I think the idea kinda evolved into a concept for creating a way to use any mods that simply place new items in containers to be picked up for free, and making those items available throughout the gameworld. And doing it automatically so that anyone can just run the program and make custom esps to suit the mods they like.