I have to say, from a realism standpoint I enjoy the changes they're making to the 5.56. the 5.56 NATO is pretty damned good at going through targets, which is why it doesn't always do a whole hell of a lot of damage. It cuts right through a person, only putting a small hole in them. people have been shot by the 5.56 and kept going. Reagan was shot by a similar round, a .22 pistol round, and didn't even know about it until later. I know pistols and rifles are not the same, but the fact that the rifle has more punch makes it all the less effective. The .22 pistol round has the tendancy to tumble around inside the body after it hits, doing more damage. In fact I've heard a story (don't know if it is true) about a man shot in the chest by a .22, and the bullet riccocheted off his ribcage to go all the way down his left leg before exiting his foot. I guess that explains the Crit increase for the .22LR.

Unfortunately, they have done nothing to the 5.56mm ammo in the game. If anything, they may have made one of the weapons that uses it *less* useful, although I'm reserving judgement on that until I see just how much they reduced the damage, and how much the ROF increase offsets that. I was campaigning for some DT bypass for all the high velocity rounds (5mm, 5.56mm, .308 and .50), but it seems my pleas only partly worked.

I believe what you are referring to is the additional -10DT on 5mm ammo, rather than 5.56mm, used in miniguns and the assault carbine. As yes, since that 5mm round seems to be fairly robust (I think of it in terms of the 5mm Remington as far as bullet weight and energy goes) giving it the DT bypass not only seems logical, but fair.

-gunny out.

They need to nerf the Avenger at least a little. Lower the rate of fire or something. F***ing Death Machine!
The huge increase in armor-piercing capabilities for the 5mm ammo is not a step in the right direction.

The Riot shotgun, to a lesser extent, has the same problem. Especially with Slug rounds. The Magnum buff is too little to compete with Slugs.

Good to see the automatic weapons are getting a decrease in spread. Give us a reason to use something other than miniguns.
I am also glad to see the lever-action guns getting their ROF lowered. They had the same DPS as automatics and much higher damage.
seems like the choice between low DAM/high DPS and high DAM/low DPS is going to be a real choice now.

Energy weapons need a little boost, though. I know they are going for balance, but the rarity of EW and the sometimes outrageous ammo consumption should compensate for the slightly higher overall damage.

Well, the placement of the miniguns as a tier 7 firearm *should* make them brutal. Think about it: A manpack multi-barrel machinegun firing high velocity rounds at 1800 rounds per minute better be one of the most damaging weapons available. The question shouldn't be is this weapon too powerful, it should be do you have the skill and strength to wield it. It should have had a ST requirement of 15 and power armor a ST boost of like 8 so that only strong power armored pcs can use it.

-Gunny out.

When is this happening

5.56 making nothing but small holes is a myth. Modern 5.56 is frangible when travelling thru soft tissue (it literally blows up into small fragments as it tumbles and rips apart meat, arteries and organ.) M193 does this better than the current M855, but there's an even newer type that's being implemented called SOST that penetrates barriers better than M855 but fragments like M193 once it enters a body. 5.56 hasn't performed like an ice pick since before Desert Storm. Even the lighter varmint rounds like the V-Max .223 does terrifying things to soft tissue.

Just wanted to clarify that.

When it comes to penetration, the list goes as this (modern .mil ammo)
Best performance on average to worst:
SOST
M855A1
M855
Mk262
M193

Best to worst for soft tissue damage:
SOST
Mk262
M855A1
M193
M855

This list is put together by memory from my own experiences using them (not including SOST as I had left the military long before it was even tested, much less supplied to the grunts.) SOST is a new ammo being used by the Marines and it is one heck of a thing

My strength right now is 8 (6 base, +1 implant, +1 from Remnants PA). Would you recommend using it while being two points down? I don't have Weapon handling, either.

I hope the assult carbine is better this time. Right now, not only does it break fast, but it kinda stinks.. :whistling:

The basic mechanics of how this works is thus:

The rifling in the barrel imparts a spin on the bullet
The spin of the bullet and the center of gravity impart what is called a "yaw" on the bullet. ie: the bullet kinda flies sideways in flight as the centerline axis of the bullet is not in alignment with the axis of flight.
This yaw means that the bullet hits it's intended target with it's mass off-centered. This can create two effects.
It can cause the bullet to tumble in the target, thereby increasing the wound channel disproportionally to the nominal size of the bullet.
It can cause the bullet to fragment. Mil spec 5.56mm bullets (M193 & M855, etc.) have a thin cannelure. This is a portion of the cupronickel jackering where the bullet is pressed into the cartridge case. This thin cannelure acts like the perforations on a roll of paper towels, ie: it gives the bullet an easy place to fracture open the hard metal jacket allowing the jacket and the softer lead encased inside to fragment easily.

Now the critical components of this is the amount of spin induced yaw, which has to be quite a bit, and the impact velocity, which has to be pretty high. This is why M855 had problems when fired from the shorter barrel of the M4 carbine. Less barrel = less velocity, and the rounds did not have the devestating terminal effect that they had when fired from the longer barreled M16. Rifling changes can also effect this, as a different rifling twist can cause less yaw, and therefore less terminal effect.


If you want to target individual targets, you'll notice the difference, but if you use the weapon in what would be its proper role, ie: area suppression and mob control, the little bit of extra spread might actually help, as you'll have to walk the impact point around less yourself, the high spread will do it for you. These things make great crowd cleaners when you don't meet the ST requirement. You may use a little more ammo, but the weapon should still be very effective. I dusted a group of 4 SM on the road up to Black Mountain in about 3-4 seconds with the Avenger a few days ago. Awesome. Just brutal butchery. Body parts flyin' everywhere. This is one weapon where not meeting the ST requirement might actually be a good thing.


As stated earlier in the thread, I've modded my 5mm ammo with -8DT, -23DT for AP. Josh went 2 more than I did, and my Assault Carbine is an absolute beast. Get the extended mag, and buy lots of ammo. You'll love the gun now.

-Gunny out.

The extra -10DT should help you out. I'm wondering if the miniguns will be viable now; before, the 10STR requirement really made them unattractive, but with the patch, I might be willing to try them them out with only 8STR if they can work against armored targets better.

^Word^ That's how I roleplay how the All American has a higher dmg rating than the others by pretending it's a 1/8 twist polygonal rifled barrel. With the Marksman Carbine being a 1/7 or 1/8 with standard rifling. Service rifle and varmint rifle being a 1/9 using lighter bullets (I won't use the 5.56 that isn't handloaded in the varmint or ratslayer because my courier doesn't want to have a mishap from over pressuring a chamber not rated for .mil ammo ) . This is an RPG, so I'm RPing damn it :gun:

I fully approve of the above post. Unless that varmint rifle specifically states on the barrel it's chambered for 5.56mm or you have the chamber pressure test results from the manufacturer, I recommend only using commercial .223 ammo. You don't want to sheer off the bolt lugs, now do you? (Hmm. That's a nice idea. Off to the GECK to change the ammo list for the Squirrel Stick)

-Gunny out.

I see, then using it as an anti-cazador/nightsalker weapon will be a good decision. Hopefully, if automatics truly do get better, I'll try giving Boone one, and then give him ammo for it when aforementioned enemies appear. I'm really looking forward to this patch, now.

Since NS & Pretty Butterflies have no DT, they work pretty good on them now. With the patch and better spread and item health, they'll work even better. Happy Hunting.

-Gunny

Edit: Sorry about the confusion.

Of course all this discussion is moot, becuase I thought they were changing the 5.56, when they're actually changing the 5mm. to be honest I've never heard of any weapon using the 5mm. None of the guns from the game really would use them. The Minigun (I'm just assuming that's a GAU-17/A) Assault Carbine (that's gotta be an M16) and the Marksmen Carbine (M4?) all fire the 5.56. Do you guys know about any 5mm weapons in common use?

Edit: Also I've never heard of SOST. What's it typically used for?

Edit: Edit: And I just read .45ACP's response and his answers all of these concerns much more eloquently.

The AK-112, the Assault Rifle from the original Fallouts. The Minigun in every game, the Assault Carbine in NV.

5mm is a common round in the Fallout universe.

5mm is quite common in the Fallout universe.

There are no 5mm weapons in common use to compare with. I guess the closest would be 5.7x28 fn and 5.56 nato.

The SOST, as stated in my post, is a new round that's being fielded by the US Marines. It blows thru most personal armor yet shreds soft tissue like a pissed off ocelot.

I think the 5mm round most closely resembles the .204 Ruger, but with a heavier bullet. 5mm takes one more unit of lead and powder each than 5.56mm so it's gonna have a significant energy advantage over 5.56mm. There's also 5mm Remington (which I believe I mistakenly mentioned earlier in the thread. I meant .204 Ruger), any number of wildcat rounds in .20 caliber and you could even make a case for the round being similar to the H&K 4.6mm or the FN 5.7mm, but neither of those rounds would take the powder and lead quantities the 5mm uses. I'm guessing Josh must agree with me since the super high (3600-4200 fps) velocity would be the reason for the DT bypass.

PS: The SOST is toast. Being replaced by the steel penetrator M855A1.

-Gunny out.

Shoot, forgot about .204 :facepalm:

I'm fine with the reduction of damage in the .308 JSP, but I'm upset with them making the bullet degrade weapons faster.

I almost don't want to get the patch because of this, I'm quite satisfied with Fallout: NV as it is now and I experience very few problems. I don't want the condition modification on mah .308 JSP rounds.

Tomorrow for PC, sometime soon for consoles.

Two ideas for you:

A) If you're on PC mod the ammo effect back out.

and

2) Since Josh has upped the item health on the automatic rifle, using jsp on that would be like using the non-patch ammo on the non-patch rifle. See, they wash. Of course, that's the only .308 weapon that i think is getting the health boost, but ya takes what ya gets.

-Gunny out

This patch is a waste of time. NV Does not need rebalancing, it needs you know actual Bugs fixed that prevent alot of people from enjoying the game. I still cant play Dead Money because of the horrible bugs in the game.

Have you used an explosive a welllll thennn .