Close is the hitbox. A "wide" weapon attacks to the left and right as well as forward, a "close" weapon has a much narrower hitbox. IIRC

Thabks for checking that, now we can rename it and I can put in the correct damage values.

Edit: QUITE THE DIFFERENCE!!

Edit2: How did you determine the Artifact Health/Weight/Price?

Edit3: I'v finished damage values for Artifacts... Except I have no idea what to do for Trueflame, Hopesfire, or un-Trueflame... Daedric Dai-Katana stats? I don't know.... Right now they're Ebony Scimitars... Though I might make them Ebony Katanas... Dwemer is just too weak.

Adamantium axe looks 1 handed, but what do I know?

How did I determine health, weight, and price? I just assigned them something - I think I jotted it down in the side on the excel sheet. Like "Stalhrim Katana" for example. That's the good thing that came from how I set up calculations for all the weapons, it calculates for all weapon types, even if the material doesn't have that kind of weapon in-game. Trueflame, Hopesfire... they are longswords, 1H. I didn't touch their damage, but make it whatever is closest to vanilla. Don't forget to give them longsword speed and reach, I recall that Trueflame was given a much slower speed than Hopesfire (why?!).

Sorry I haven't been on overmuch today. I did finish up most of the adjustments for the base esp for the AIM mod. All I have to do is combine it with the TB and BM expansions in various combinations, and it is good to go. Personally, I want to muck around with some of the dinkier enchantments, but I'll refrain from meddling. :angel:

Things are going to be a bit hectic for me, depending on how well I manage my time outside of classes. But, it sounds like we are getting near the end of the calculations, which is cool. I'm so excited! :dance:

Once I give them damage I'll post my finals so that you can view them. Values are going to be altered to be believable for an artifact item (probably triple price, 50% health bonus, -20% weight....). My notes on specific item types are also in the margin.

I refuse to touch Riekling or Goblin damage values, they're simply not really worth the effort.

Edit: Ranged wepon damage is also untouched, you can use Vanilla damage for Bows and Crossbows. I'm going to make some EP changes, so you can expect the next revision (hopefully final) tomorrow.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/yerlmycx0y5/WeaponsWithDamageMXIIb.xls

Artifacts complete. I'm quite happy with these numbers, though you're welcome to make comments and all that, as usual.

Ranged Weapon damage values of course aren't changed, I've never used bows so I have no idea how they are, I figure Vanilla numbers will work as well as any.

I... heh, my mind isn't processing numbers right now. :wacko: But, things look great. I did notice the Mace of Aevar Stonesinger does less damage than vanilla. I think that is okay, though, considering that we've reduced its weight so much.

Hmm... why did you make Eltonbrand less powerful than Goldbrand? I see in your notes that you are tempted to make it Broken, but what is your reasoning behind that? I'm curious.

Keening has the stats of a Dwemer Waraxe? It is a one-handed weapon, with the appearance of a hammer, should not its properties be more like those of a mace? Or, to make artifacts awesome with damage, a war hammer?

You've been doing great work. :goodjob:

@readers: if you'd like to offer your feedback, please speak up!

The power disparity is a typo... Those numbers need to be reversed... Those two are annoying to deal with...

As for Keening... I gave it a realistic set of values. It's a fairly light 1H hammer, I felt that a war axe has roughly equivalent damage values. So I took the damage values and increased them a bit. In vanilla it DOES have Warhammer-level damage. I just felt that such damage was unrealistic.

Though looking at the UESP... Sunder is the hammer, keening the shorstword... So those two need to be switched...

Plus the enchantments for both those weapons are absolutely AMAZING. So they don't need all that great damage.

Do you want to fix those on your end? Or shall I fix them on mine and upload it for you?

Edit: http://www.mediafire.com/file/5ymmvkmmlyg/WeaponsWithDamageMKIIb.xls I recommend that you set the value of the artifacts. Mostly just the "less" valuable ones, as Keening is only worth 3000 septims... I'm not sure what it SHOULD be worth, as only a fool would sell such an amazing item anyway.

My mistake regarding keening and sunder, I always mix up which is the blade and which is the hammer. Sorry about that. Should I still download that file you linked to, or are there any more changes you'd like to do on your end?

I'm quite happy with the second link I made. The only thing "wrong" is price values for Artifacts. And I'm not good at deciding on what costs should be anyway.

Barring divine intervention (IE glaring mistakes I missed) everything should be ready. If you have some changes you'd like to make (Sunder's damage, Artifact values, anything else) go ahead and make them. Damage, EP, Health, Reach, Speed, and (Generic item) Value for all the (melee) weapons are complete. Ranged weapons' damage will be untouched IIRC? Except throwing weapons of course.

For prices, I just type in a bunch of random numbers. :hehe: Considering you have an eye for balance, why not try this approach a bit and see what comes out? Unless you'd like me to handle this part...?

Also, this isn't quite ready to go into the CS, it needs to be put in the correct format, and the enchanted weapons have to be inputted. :wacko: Would you like to do that, or shall I?

EDIT: wait, didn't I already scribble in prices for the artifacts? Yeah, I think I did....

When all else fails you could just give the Artifacts their vanilla values? I simply gave the artifacts triple the value of their "base" weapon. It worked out pretty well for the most part, and I hand-tuned a few prices I didn't like, but I think a couple are a little low.

*shrug*

You can take a stab at prices, for the most part you can't sell any Artifacts well. Damage, EP, Range, Speed... Those are what I'm good at, price I just don't care enough about to obsess with it.

I'd just recommend that you look at the prices and make any changes you deem necessary.

Edit: I disliked some of your numbers, so I used my own system.

yeah, there are some numbers that need changing because the enchantments are so powerful. Like the Hunter's Spear and Fang of Haynechtachoogesundheit. (:P)

EDIT: Did you want to do those adjustments, or shall I? I might not work on anything tonight, but I'll be able to work on it tomorrow.

Haynechtnamet? Or is ti a "k"... Whatever...

Yah, I just have "minimum" values... I figured you could incease them where you wanted to.

But... Once you do that it should be ready to be converted into a mod...

So you might get the balancing mods released in a week or so? That's just a guess... I know I can convert numbers by hand in about a day or so... However that's generic items, after that you gotta track down all the generic enchanted items...

If I had the CS working... Unfortunately I haven't got it... As much as Id like to play a game...

/enddepressingtangent

What's left to do? Clothes... And that's about it?

Personally I want to make a simple little mod that increases Unarmored AR (to 116) and gives those who start with Enchant as a major skill a Soul Trap spell. Just a thought I had in the last few days... Kind of a "caster" upgrade.

Edit: Since prices are all that's needed to be altered you can go ahead and adjust them as needed. As I said everything else is "ready" for release as I see it.

Clothes, that's definitely another mod I'd like to work on with you. Maybe we can get in those hoods, too! Except, I know next to nothing about loot lists. Eh, we can make that as a separate mod, as I imagine it will take much more time to make than a re-balance of the existing clothing items.

As for the Armor and Weapon mods - yeah, maybe a week. I'm making no promises, though. But, I have Monday off from classes, and I've done most of my assignments early, so I should have enough free time to start plugging in numbers. I really wish I was as Excel Savvy as PirateLord.... Hmmm... maybe I can ask him if he'd set up your sheets! :lightbulb: I'll go do that right now...

What do we want to do about ranged weapon damage? For arrows and thrown weapons, that is. Are my numbers good, or would you like to tweak them?

Vanilla Bow and Crossbow numbers are fair IIRC, ammo and throwing weapon numbers...

*checks spreadsheet*

Your ranged numbers look fair. Of course you do have to keep in mind that throwing items have the tiniest bit of ability at enchanting... You might want to check their EP values, IIRC you can enchant them 1 at a time... Of course after that they don't stack...

After the release of this mod I'm going to have an Argonian that uses glass throwing knives!!

Why Argonian? I'll be using my Unarmored AR increase, and they have nice agility and speed.

:D Sounds good to me. I wish I could figure out how to make merchants sell them, as they are so rare!

I think you have to add them to their inventory? Hmmm... I think I remember how to do it...

Maybe I'll work with you on giving merchants a better item spread? I suppose I could do it myself...

*considers number of merchants in the game*

*shudders*

Balancing is one thing, but that'll be torture!!

Anyway... 150 Unarmored is a half decent AR if you have a 116 base... Of course 150 HA results in Daedric armor with 400 AR...

If I may, while trying to figure out how to import your older stats into CS, I figured out how to make the excel sheet format. Pm me the finished data, and I'll do my best to put it in the format in excel and send it back to you later tonight. I'm offering because it seemed like you didn't really want to do it, and I am really looking forward to this, so I thought I might as well offer my services.

Hee-hee.

I'd probably add a ton of those glass knives to that merchant in Ghostgate that also sells glass armor. :shrug: But, yeah, quite the beast to tackle. I can see why modders just make a new NPC merchant or two that have all the stuff that is lacking from other merchants. I'd imagine only upper-crust merchants would have high-end throwing weapons and ammo.

Well... I'll be sure to add Glass weapons to the guy in ghostgate once I get the CS running and remember how to do it...

IIRC you just have to add the item to their chest... Or cell in osme cases... If you want it to respawn you add a negative amount. You can also add the item directly to his inventory as well I think...

If you want to test it... A good number for throwing knives would be 50 or so... So -50 in his stack.

Edit: I think you just have to mark the item as owned by the merchant and he can sell it. Or she as the case may be...

I've been using Marksman Enhanced v1.2 by Bravo 1 mainly because it adds some of the missing material types for ranged weapons, but especially because he did real world testing on which to base rates of fire and damage for crossbows.

Here's the readme with his numbers (IIc) if you are interested:

_______________________ Marksman Enhanced v1.2 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-_________Contents: Ia. Introduction Ib. InstallationIIa. New to v1.2IIb. New to v1.1IIc. ContentsIII. Bugs/Compatability IV. Thanks  V. Contact/Legal_________Ia. Introduction: This mod was inspired by the original Marksman Mod; I opened it a few years earlier and was most amused by it...but then I came across the orcish crossbow in the mod. Much to my disappointment, it did NOT look at all like the armor; so I sat down with photoshop and cannibalized pieces of the armor until I made a texture. What had initially started as a tweak turned into a mod as I made a wooden and bonemold crossbow texture, but due to UV mapping issues the wooden one was not released. Instead, I substituted gamesas's model. After making all these crossbows, I decided to make them more realistic, by tweaking their rates of fire and damage; after this I saw that this made them way better than bows and throwables so I tweaked those too. After placing orcish crossbows on orcs who previously had steel, adding a couple Hlaalu sharpshooters with bonemold crossbows...and scattering a few wooden mods, I came up with the mod you have now before you; I hope you enjoy it! And after doing all that I realized that I'd left out the silver crossbow to complement the bolts already ingame, so I've added them in v1.2, hopefully the last update for this little mod!_________Ib. Installation: Well, to most of you this is routine, but to some of you it may not be; I have not zipped this with file paths because some users run their Morrowind in different ways than other and have it installed in different places.	Extract to desktop or folder of your choice.	Open the "Marksman Enhanced v1.2" folder then your Morrowind directory.	Select everything in the "Marksman Enhanced v1.2" folder and drag and 	drop them into the Data Files folder, if prompted about the folder names 	already existing click okay. This will merge the files into those folders 	making sure everything is in its right place.	If you prefer to move them manually put the esp.plugin into data files, 	Mesh folder B1 into Data Files/Meshes, icon folder B1 into Data Files/Icons 	and the textures go into Data Files/Textures.	Start Morrowind, click Data Files and check "Marksman Enhanced v1.2.esp" 	and you're ready to play.	Should you encounter any problems, bugs or anything else, feel free to 	contact me (see section V. for Contact Info).IMPORTANT NOTE: for those of you who are upgrading from v1.0 or 1.1, if you would like to remove the previous files, here is a listing of them (you will no longer need these files to play the mod):/Icons/bonemold crossbow.ddsorcish crossbow.dds/Meshes/W_Crossbow_bonemoldW_Crossbow_Orcish/Textures/TX_w_bonemold_crossbowTx_W_Crossbow_Orcish_________IIa. New to v1.2:- added silver crossbow to levelled lists- added silver crossbow to Mournhold Craftsmen's Hall- added silver crossbow to Sirollus Saccus's smithy in the Ebonheart, Hawkmoth Legion Garrison- added silver crossbow in Verick Gemain's Shop in Caldera- changed projectile store chance to 85% instead of 25%- changed the names of the files and organized them more efficiently- redid the all crossbow stats based on extensive timed tests comparing bows and crossbows- redid orcish crossbow texture and switched the mesh_________IIb. New to v1.1:- removed some unnecessary refs- double checked everything- added a bonemold crossbow in a guard tower in Maar Gan- added bonemold crossbows to various people who were armed with steel crossbows before (and had bonemold bolts)- added bonemold crossbow to some leveled lists- made bonemold crossbow available from Saetring the Nord in Molag Mar- redid bonemold crossbow's texture- added dwarven bolts to various people who were armed with other bolts before (and had a dwarven crossbow)- added dwarven bolts to some containers and leveled lists- added glass longbow to Hlaalu Vault - made glass longbow available from Dronos Llervu in the Ghostgate Tower of Dusk - added orcish crossbow to various people who were armed with steel crossbows before (and had orcish bolts)- added orcish crossbow to some leveled lists- made orcish crossbow available from Garothmuk Gro-Muzgub the smith in Suran- added the wooden crossbow to some leveled lists and in a treestump- made wooden crossbow available at The Razor Hole in Balmora - Dronos Llervu now sells 7 glass arrows (5 restock)- Garothmuk Gro-Muzgub now sells 18 orcish bolts (15 restock)_________IIc. Contents:This is basically a guide to the stats of the weapons in the game after my changes.Here are the general stats of MOST categories, though there will be exceptions:Avg. Throw Dagger (speed): 1.4Avg. Throw Star (speed): 1.6Avg. Throw Dart (speed): 1.3Avg. Short Bow (speed): 1.4Avg. Long Bow (speed): 1.2(all crossbows vary!)Avg. Arrow (speed): 1.7Avg. Bolt (speed): 2.0Now the crossbows:Bonemold (speed): .75(damage): 35Dwarven (speed): .6(damage): 50Hunter (speed): .95(damage): 30Orcish (speed): .7(damage): 45Silver (speed): .65(damage): 40Steel (speed): .5(damage): 30Wooden (speed): .8(damage): 25And now the exceptions:Daedric Longbow (speed): 1.1Glass Longbow (speed): 1.3Bow of Shadows (speed): 1.5Auriel's Bow (speed): 1.1Darts of Judgement (speed): 1.5Dwarven Darts [Tribunal special - I did not change them, but they are still listed because they are exceptions](speed): 2.00_________III. Bugs/Compatability:This mod requires both Bloodmoon and Tribunal.Well, basically I can tell you this mod will probably NOT work with other marksman mods that change current weapons...it may well work with ones that ADD new weapons. This mod has been cleaned with TESAME so it should not have any evil GMSTs*; if you want to report any bugs/odd issues (not that it does not work with the marksman mod), feel free to email me (see contact section).*Actually, there is ONE GMST (but not an evil one!) that you should be aware of; it is the ProjectileStoreChance multiplier which should be left alone. It shouldn't mess up your game in any way, all it does is make your chances of retrieving spent ammo 85%. If you remove it, those chances will go back down to 25%._________IV. Thanks:Many thanks to Calislahn for everything really (you name it, she helped me somehow!). Thanks to Alienslof for her photoshop tips, encouragement and testing v1.1.Thanks to Bored Guest X for the testing both v1.1 and 1.2, encouragement and ideas! Not to mention putting up with the bombardment of WIP shots A big thanks to HeWhoWatches for testing and staying up with me way past his bedtime giving me opinions and ideas (among which was a wonderful revision for the bonemold crossbow's texture)!Thanks to Mebyon for the field testing (oh those poor cliff racers!) and readme corrections...Thanks to Regan for encouraging me to rethink my crossbow stats and the suggestion to compare them in the field thus being able to factor the speed of the animation into the rest of the speed/damage ratio.Thanks to Intelligentsia for the Marksman Mod (which was my inspiration for this mod) and for allowing me to use his dwarven bolt and glass longbow icons, meshes and textures. Also thanking Soar182 who tested v1.0.And of course, many thanks to gamesas for such a wonderful game!_________V. Contact/LegalEmail me at: feedback.bravo1@gmail.comor stop by to see me at the Perceptual Motion Forums at (yes, we've moved!): [src="http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/topic/860009-wip-weapon-balance-mod/http://perceptualmotion.co.uk/forum/index.php"]http://perceptualmotion.co.uk/forum/index.php[/url]*You may use my crossbow in your mods, but please ask me first and give proper credit.*You may NOT use the glass longbow or the dwarven bolt, because they are not mine to give permission for; they are the property of Intelligentsia, and you must ask him before using them!*You may NOT merge my mod with another and re-release it!

So how's this mod coming along? Is your thread about bows related to this mod?

I think the bow replacer will be different from this mod.

This mod is coming along. PirateLord magickified the spreadsheets, and the base info has been filled in. However, there are some parts that are slower going for Autocthon and me. The slow part comes from items that need to be hand tuned. The artifacts, for instance, require attention and detail. Also, the prices for enchanted (generic, etc) items will need to be guesstimated - that's going to end up being my job (Autocthon has been doing the artifacts and the ranged weapons).

Don't fret, this mod will be completed. I think I'll make it an .esm. While I'm at it, I'll probably update the AIM mod to be an .esm instead of an .esp. I just have to find out if that is going to mess stuff up. Can someone point me to something that talks about how .esms and .esps interact (or not) with each other?

You have to edit all the prices for the stuff?! No wonder its taking a while....

Yep, that is going to take a while. Trouble is, that it is going to take a while for every new mod that you install. I'm not part of this mod, but I have gone through the same thing with Taddeus' Balanced Weapons and Armors: I have balanced every mod I currently use to blend in with it and it took some hell of a time. Do you have any idea how long it takes to only balance Morrowind Comes Alive? - That mod features hundreds of weapons. But once you start using a mod like this, you need to balance every new mod so that it blends in with your weapon stats.
I'm curious to see how you will balance things, Alaisiagae, but I think that won't convince myself to rebalance some 200 mods. I think, I'll stick to Taddeus' mods.

Anyway, here's to your mod :foodndrink:
B

I found a site that talks about changing esps to esms if you care to take a look at it: http://www.angelfire.com/clone2/shadowsong/How-To.html
This site also talks about what you can do in a esp that you can't do in an Esm (when editing). I'm not sure that is what you meant by esp-esm relationship but I hope it helps.