Thanks for documenting the issues - and of course for fixing them in WEPON. I don't think it's picky at all. Any plans of releasing the fixes as standalone patches? (Sorry, noticed that they already are. Downloading.)

Are the MOBS packages no longer available for this because you are trying to fix MOBS more directly?

@Psymon.

I'm looking at the MOBS support download on my screen right now (it's the file listed under updates on the Nexus page). Where did you hear that the MOBS support for this mod was being pulled?

Yep, I should probably make that a little clearer on the WEPON downloads page. MOBS is, and will continue to be, supported in WEPON.
To get the MOBS-specific versions you have to download the Update.

Okay, I separated the MOBS conversion files out into its own download, so that it's clearer where you can get those files.

Just wanted to add my thanks to the pile for this awesome mod. It may seem like the ultimate results are small, but I love the consistency this adds to the game and I appreciate the long hours of work you must have put into making this.

Thank you, Jupiah. It's been a lot of fun.

We have quite a bit of future development planned for WEPON, including:

• Spiney and Ionis are currently working on new Orcish weapons.
  
• Kriscrash has done some early work on new Mithril weapons, though my understanding is she plans to release those as a standalone project.
  
• Add Adamantium weapons and heavy armor - one level of quality below Ebony
  
• Add a new set of "lore-friendly" light armor and weapons - one level of quality below Elven - perhaps Stalhrim?
  
• Add a final additional set of heavy armor, light armor, and weapons. I will not discuss our plans for this in public, but will give details to anyone interested in participating.
  
• Related to the above--addition of one equipment related quest.

We could use people with these skills to supplement the work already being done:
--High quality weapon designers - mesh and texture
--High quality heavy and light armor designers - mesh and texture
--World-builders
--(possibly) quest writers
--Willing to reuse existing resources or work on new ones

This would be, needless to say, a large time commitment. Is anyone interested in more information?

BFG- you might consider adding Chitin armor or Bonemold armor. Hel Borne has created a beautiful recreation of Morrowinds chitin armor and weapons. They can be found http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=30541. Ghogiel has also created some beautiful morrowind armor recreations. They are dreugh armor, stahlrim and dwemer armor. They can be found http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=10775

Thanks for the tips, John!

Would anyone complain if I included HelBorne's Chitin armor but called it "Dreugh"? I'd like to for two reasons: (1) Dreugh was a much higher quality armor in Morrowind than Chitin was, and to work in WEPON this set needs to be between Mithril and Elven in quality; and (2) it does kind of remind me of the Land Dreughs in Oblivion.

Any thoughts are appreciated.


EDIT: I have settled on a set to use for Adamantium! I have Andragorn's permission to use elements from his Weapons and Armor set.

• http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/26490-1-1250274939.jpg. Due to scaling, the weapons labeled "War Sword", "Short War Sword", and "War Dagger" would become the Claymore, Longsword, and Shortsword respectively
  
• Adamant armor: http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/26490-3-1251379569.jpg, http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/26490-4-1251379482.jpg

However, I have a problem. The set is missing a Dagger, Warhammer, and Bow, and the Arrow quiver (in my opinion) does not match the rest of the set. Andragorn is not interested in further modifications. I cannot use these weapons unless I have a complete set!--is anyone interested in finishing the work?

Hmm, it appears that the Chitin weapon set is also incomplete...too bad!
Does anyone know of any Morrowind-style weapon and light armor sets that include ALL of the basic weapons (bow+arrow, battle and war axes, mace and warhammer, dagger and shortsword, longsword and claymore)?

That wouldn't make any sense.......

Eh, fair enough. It was just a thought. If I use that Chitin set, I'll have to substantially boost the stats; in Morrowind, Chitin was lower quality than Iron, but to use it here I'd have to put it betwen Mithril and Elven.

Anyone have other suggestions for complete light weapon+armor sets that could be used? I haven't been able to find any Morrowind style sets--Chitin, Dreugh, Stalhrim, etc.--that are complete, in terms of having all nine basic weapons.

Also see my previous post regarding needing three weapons (dagger, bow and warhammer) modeled to complete the Adamantium set. Any volunteers?

Are you just wanting to readjust the stats on Chitin because you have a void of numbers to fill between Mithril and Elven? Does a set have to be there?

Why do these sets need to be complete?

Then I thought if this was going to periodically merge with Johns List Overhaul then won't that have some of these things?

I know in my FCOM game my character has Stalhrim armor, but uncertain of what mod adds it. I'm guessing it is likely Francesco (or an uonffical add on) or Warcry. Lets see ... Not in http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=11483 ... maybe ask in the FCOM thread - I'm certain it is from one of them.

I'll try and check it out, but likely it is a retexture anyway.

================
[edit] OK sorry I was being lazy just loaded up the game and it is warcry and they are retextures glass greaves made to look shiny black.

WARNING: Overly lengthy and boring explanation follows!


WEPON's theme has been to add weapons (and in some cases, armor) to vanilla Oblivion, that Bethesda "should have" added. The emphasis is quality over quantity. To that end, we completed the Amber and Madness weapon sets - since they're the only major sets that Bethesda didn't complete. We also added in Orcish and Mithril weapons, to complement the armor of the same type, and because those sets have shown up in previous TES games. Since the focus is on what "Bethesda should have done", any weapon and armor sets added must cover all six armor components and all nine basic weapon types.

Adamantium is the only major weapon set remaining that showed up in TES1, TES2, and TES3 (via an expansion), but isn't in Oblivion. So, we'd like to add it to WEPON. The problem is, if we add the Adamantium weapons, we need to add Adamantium heavy armor; and if we add Adamantium heavy armor, we need to add another light armor set to complement it, or more heavy armor would exist in the game then light armor. And then we need to add another new weapon set to complement the new light armor.

We're planning to put Adamantium just below Ebony in armor and weapon quality, since historically Adamantium has always been one step below Ebony. To maintain light and heavy armor balance we need to place the new light armor set just below Elven (light armor equivalent of Ebony).

In terms of where the final weapon set would go, I need to explain it by listing all the sets currently available:

• Iron
  
• a bit better - Fine Iron
  
• Steel
  
• a bit better - Fine Steel
  
• Silver
  
• a bit better - Mithril
  
• Dwarven
  
• Elven
  
• a bit better - Orcish
  
• Glass
  
• Ebony
  
• Daedric

There are holes between Dwarven/Elven, Glass/Ebony, and Ebony/Daedric. The proposal would fill the first two of those holes, and so be relatively balanced.

Hope this makes some sense

In JLLO I have split the chitin armor up into gloves, cuirass and greaves. I couldnt separate the boots from the greaves so I left them together. Your welcome to them if ya want them

My thoughts on the 'complete set' scheme:
Morrowind was much more liberal and creative in the gear layout than Oblivion. For instance, in Morrowind some (most) sets were 'incomplete' in the sense that the only set which had one of every type of armor/weapon in the game (and I mean a friggin 20+ types of killing tools, from crossbow to throwing knifes to halberd to daikatana) was steel. Not only that, but then there's the gear statistics part. In Oblivion, every increase in the quality of a gear piece (from silver to dwemer, from dwemer to elven, etc..) means that the weapon gets slightly increased attributes in ALL fields minus speed and reach, so it is heavier, more damaging, durable and expensive than the previous tier. In the case of light armor, it is almost impossible to 'insert' a new category there and make it feel unique enough, because light armor pieces just increase their weight and AR a few decimal points in each tier.
This was less harsh in Morrowind, where you have glass armor and weapons with vastly superior stats to almost anything before them, yet their weight is significantly inferior; in fact, all the armor was pretty normal in stats until a sudden increase to 'epicness' in ebony, glass, daedric, and other materials exclusive to TES. Plus there was hardly a scheme for the sets or the stats, every type of material felt unique and had only the weapons that the developers felt right to add.

I find the new madness and amber weapons added by this mod very well done and fitting in perfectly, but I think you shouldn't sweat it too much if you can't make a complete weapon set for a material, or introduce as many light as heavy sets. After all, its going to be the player's choice.

I've been working with MW stuff a lot the past few days, http://tesalliance.org/forums/index.php?/gallery/album/378/176-insane-creations/:D, I might be up for making some weapons after I clear some stuff of my to-do list.

Why must Chitin be in a "set" stats region? There are often cases where two different materials have the same/similar strengths and weaknesses, so why can't the Default Chitin values be used. If anything it would allow the player to have a bit of armor variety, since they have more choices in that range of protection.
Also, it would be IMO best to add parts of the sets in as they come. Those armor/weapon pieces are amazing and it would be a shame to not put them to use. Many people mix and match weapons and armor, so a few pieces are better than none.
As to the use of the Sotonhorian for the Adamantium armor... The Sotonhorian armor/weapon set is beautiful, an extremely well-crafted armor/weapon set. The thing is, it doesn't look much like Adamantium. It has too much detail compared to the other armors, too, so that may look strange... Basically, it's a little too good to be used as vanilla armor.

First off I was just asking and do encourage you to continue as you like obviously. You mod your goals. It seems you are shooting for 1. follow the hierarchy with Daedric at the top 2. Include as much lore based sets as possible and make them fit the hierarchy.

These holes you speak of - is it that you are seeing them after examining the stats of each set and see that there is an iteration or two that could be filled?

Is there lore to support this scheme? I mean I know it is a video game and there is a kind of hierarchy, but it seems awfully rigid. Like why couldn't the elvish excel at making light weapons and armor while the orcs excel at the heavy? Thereby the the light and heavy from each of these sets would not fall so evenly into this hierarchy? Does that make sense. Plus it would seem that some races/types may not include everything. I mean this game is not history and there is little evidence for this stuff being produced in mass quantities and why would one race, the elves for instance, say hey those orcs have heavy armor, we better get on the ball. All this reminds me of a mod that instead of unifying more armor actually breaks apart vanilla armor more and creates unique versions (same stats) ... the idea that this armor would be personalized and not look uniform.

Adamantium ... everything I've ever read about it in fantasy lit and comics is that it seems to be heavy only and it would seem that it would be bulky, but that is all subjective.

I like variety so in the long run it doesn't matter to me - I will likely use it regardless.

Wow, great feedback guys! You've given me plenty to think about.



I would have to agree with you. I prefer Morrowind's style of "only having a few weapons/armor of each material", and making those materials feel quite a bit different from one another. That said, since Oblivion is set up the way it is--where each material type is only a few points (pounds, AR, damage, etc.) higher than the previous type, and complete sets of everything except Amber and Madness exist--the WEPON authors decided to stay with that scheme so as to make WEPON fit as seamlessly as possible. But then there's the MOBS option, which I think goes quite a ways towards addressing this issue.
This design was a conscious choice by the other authors and I, in other words




Hmm, a lot to think about here!
I think the Chitin (and for that matter, Dreugh, Stalhrim/Ice, Bonemold and other Morrowind sets) that have been created for Oblivion are fantastic, and would encourage anyone to use them. That said, the approach I'm taking in looking for a new set is to stay consistent with Bethesda's balance and basic design, as well as WEPON's original philosophy. So, that means any armor that is added must have 6 pieces, and any weapon set that is added must have 4 blunts, 4 blades, and bow+arrows. Ultimately, WEPON should feel like part of the original game, not an add-on!
Anyone who wants to add Chitin or other sets to their game, that don't mind those sets feeling modded in, can certainly use the ESPs that come with those sets
Regarding the Sotonhorian, I'm afraid you could be right! It's a great set - perhaps too good - though it does look somewhat like what I would imagine Adamantium to look like. The right color, though perhaps a bit too fancy and not bulky enough. Other thoughts?




No problem, Psymon! I love getting constructive feedback, please keep it coming.
You're right on the weapon stat holes. In the weapon sets, stats increase rigidly for each "major" type - Iron, Steel, Silver, Dwarven, Elven, Glass, Ebony, Daedric. For example, each Battle Axe weighs exactly 7 pounds more than the version before it, and Damage, Health, Weight, etc. also all conform to a rigid pattern. Rusty Iron, Fine Iron, Fine Steel, Madness, Amber, Orcish, and Mithril all are calculated off of these major types. The "holes" between Dwarven and Elven, and between Glass and Ebony, mean that room still exists for weapon sets with distinctive attributes.


Very very true...I would have rather had a system where the weapons were more unique, like they were in Morrowind. I do like MOBS in that it attempts to give each weapon set distinctive characteristics, but still maintain overall balance. Like making the Elven weapons light and fast, while the Daedric weapons are extremely heavy and slow, but hard-hitting. I guess that's why we ended up deciding to offer WEPON in both a vanilla, and a MOBS, format
Looking back at how Adamantium appeared in Morrowind, I think you're right. Sotonhorian is a great style but just doesn't seem to match that well. I was excited about using it though since it's almost complete, looks great, and as far as I can tell has not been used in any other mods. Other thoughts?



I'm still researching and trying to decide what to do in WEPON next, so any and all feedback is welcome!

Has anyone created a Morrowind overhaul of the Adamantium armor? Sometimes Morrowind armor mods are of a good enough quality to use in Oblivion. If anyone redid the armor for Morrowind, you could ask them to share it as a resource and if need be, you could make some minor modifications.

Just a quick teaser to show that WEPON development is far from over. And no, I'm not providing any details at this time
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy295/jtrevor99/OblivionShot1.jpg

Hmm, running into some problems with the next phase. The WEPON future development plans (of which that screenshot above is a tiny hint) include a quest that at one point will require you to play Battle Chess, but as you've noticed from other threads I'm having difficulty integrating the artificial player into Oblivion. Hopefully someone with OBSE plugin experience, or much more scripting experience than I, will lend a hand. Or, I'll just have to change the future development plans

Downloaded this mod to give it a try. I'm using the MOBS version with a full FCOM setup.

I know the intent wasn't to be fully compatible with OMOBS but in looking at the changes you made I do have a question about glass arrows. You increased the damage on these to 20, which is higher than both ebony and daedric when used in combination with FCOM/OMOBS.

Of course, in base Oblivion arrows were ranked Glass -> Ebony -> Daedric. FCOM/OMOBS maintained that ranking, although it adjusted the damage values. The other thing I noticed was the damage levels of the new mithril and orcish arrows. With FCOM/OMOBS, you'd have the following damage levels:

Glass - 14
Ebony - 15
Daedric - 17

When WEPON is added to the combination with FCOM/OMOBS, arrow damages are ranked like this:

Ebony - 15
Mithril - 16
Daedric - 17
Orcish - 19
Glass - 20

The Ebony and Daedric arrows aren't touched by WEPON, so they essentially keep the OMOBS level which is based on OOO. I know Francesco's uses higher damage levels for both Ebony and Daedric but in a full FCOM build those values won't be used, which will result in the above. My suggestion is that at least in your MOBS version you should add references to Ebony and Daedric arrows with appropriate MOBS damage levels, so the more typical balance is maintained.

EDIT: One other side effect of all this is that mithril arrows end up better than dwarven/elvish when used with FCOM, although only slightly so, and not to the same degree as the differences of ebony/daedric which are typically assumed to be at the top of the scale. Just mentioning it since it differs from your post above.

EDIT2: Also, one request - it would be awesome if there was an arrow mesh replacement pack option for the new arrows added by WEPON, similar to what is available for vanilla (http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=9051) and most FCOM components (http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=25335). Essentially they just make the arrows longer so they look more realistic.

The last version of this mod isn't fully compatible with OOO/OMOBS stats systems and also with respect prices. This is especially obvious for Arrows and Bows (Orcish and Mithril). Last week I installed Oblivion after some months of absence. I past several days tweaking WEPON 1.0.3 and OMOBS 1.0 to fit complete compatibility with OOO vision, particularly I tweaked Arrows and Orcish/Mithril bows stats. I added Shivering Isles weapons (not arrows and Bows) MOBS stats to OMOBS 1.0. Also I selected carefully the best solution from WEAPON and OMOBS.
I put here a temporary link for BFG99 and Corepc to study my changes in order to release future revisions to their mods:
http://www.4shared.com/file/8INLJupb/WEAPON103_OMOBS10_Patchs.html
I'm using these tweaks only for my personal game and I haven't published them anywhere.

This is just a proposal (to study) for the mod authors.