First and foremost, this post is a last chance plea to Bethesda to bring back weapon/item degradation as well as skills that were present in Fallout 3. This post is also an open letter to Bethesda and the videogame industry as a whole. If the mods deem this post as spam or if the majority of the members on these forums flame this post to kingdom come, so be it. I simply cannot remain silent about this anymore.

As many of you on these forums already know, Fallout 4 will not feature weapon/item degradation (with the exception of power armor), nor will it feature the many skills present in Fallout 3. Some of you may dislike this. Most probably don’t care or prefer these things to be gone. Regardless of how you may feel, this is indicative of a much larger issue affecting the videogame industry today, which is the casualization and streamlining of established franchises in an effort to increase market share.

While Bethesda is indeed guilty of doing this in the past (Skyrim), they are but one cog in the machine. More and more developers, often pushed by the publishers that control them, are drastically changing the gameplay mechanics and the very direction of games for no other reason than to expand their consumer base and/or shift their focus to a new demographic (casuals). There have been countless examples of this, especially within the last five years. Some franchises that come to my mind are Resident Evil, Splinter Cell, Ghost Recon, Rainbow Six, Halo, Dead Space, and Fable.

I am an independent videogame developer currently working on my first game, and if not for avenues of crowdfunding such as Kickstarter, I would never have chosen a career path in the videogame industry. The parasitic publishers that have a stranglehold on the industry, and the shareholders they serve, have run franchise after franchise into the ground, many of which were some of my favorite at one time. I remember a time, not so long ago, when developers had the creative freedom to take risks, innovate, and create new IPs. I remember when they were free to make the games that they themselves wanted to make, without worrying about targeting a specific demographic or worrying about obtaining a Metascore of 85 or higher in order to satisfy publishers with their ridiculous “Metascore clauses” in their contracts with developers. I am absolutely disgusted with the state of the industry today, and I am absolutely sure that publishers, and some developers, are to blame.

I am aware that Fallout 4 will have full mod support on PC, Xbox One, and eventually PS4, and I’m aware that it is guaranteed that some fan or fans will create mods that will feature weapon/item degradation as well as the skills that were featured in Fallout 3. However, as I’ve made clear, this issue of removing features and gameplay mechanics from games in order to expand the audience is not a practice limited to Bethesda nor is it limited to Fallout 4.

I know that my pleas will probably reach deaf ears. I seriously doubt Bethesda will add weapon/item degradation and skills for what would surely be deemed as a “negligible market share”. At the same time, I feel that I have to say something, even if it doesn’t accomplish anything. I am very passionate about the videogame industry and I am very concerned with its current state and its future as well. I hate seeing a medium that I’ve grown up with and enjoyed at its peak start to rust and decay, especially when it doesn’t have to be that way. I am sure that because of what Bethesda is doing, Fallout 4 will sell X percent more units, since Fallout is now less of an RPG and more of an open-world action game with RPG elements.

I have heard that some Bethesda employees are active on these forums from time to time. Hopefully they’ll see this post, but I’m certainly not optimistic about it, nor am I optimistic that I will change anything. If for nothing else than to satisfy my own curiosity, I’ve chosen to add a poll to this topic in order to see where the Fallout community stands. That’s all I have to say.

/rant

I wasn't aware that item repair had been removed. If so that completely svcks as the whole point of a post apocalyptic game is scrounging for resources and having to keep that nice shotgun you found awhile back glued together with ductape and wonderglue.

It's not casualization. There's no such damn thing; Bethesda (nor any other game designer, I daresay) isn't thinking to themselves "those common gamers are just too stupid to understand or enjoy a complex system of skills and item degradation". It's downright elitist to think you're above the "casual" gamer for enjoying different things, and in my experience a lot of that "complexity" I find in older games is unnecessary, cluttered, and poorly balanced.

On skills: this leveling system is much less linear, and it's balanced in such a way that a level cap is completely unnecessary. And as far as we know, you can still do everything you could do in the prior games, and make choices on how to improve those actions with perks. Nothing has really been lost mechanically - although traditional item repair has been replaced with a complex crafting system (that still ecourages us to salvage weapons and scrap in order to improve our equipment).

On repair: We actually don't know if or how it's included yet. We do know that the only equipment to show a condition/health rating is Power Armor, and we also saw a raider's chestplate get blown off in the E3 combat sizzle reel. We also know that when Pete Hines was asked about a repair mechanic, his answer was "something we're not ready to talk about yet"; which doesn't eliminate the possibility it's been removed, either. And for me, the new crafting system incorporates everything I liked about Repair.

I would like to see armor degradation return.

The font you used is really difficult to read, it's condensed so it's headache inducing when used to write paragraphs.

Besides that, I'm of the mind that armor/weapon degradation should (or should have in this case) remain(ed). I understand that some gun aficionados will argue that it wasn't realistic, but the point of the system was beyond that. Degradation was, admittedly, too fast on some items - but that's never an excuse to outright remove something.

I would have liked to have seen the concept improved.

Armor/weapon degradation was also an important game balance mechanic.

It keep someone from making a fortune from selling raiders weapons and allowed the better weapons to make an appearance without being over powered because they where in poor condition and short on ammo.

I don't see them dropping it unless they have something better to replace it.

I'm hoping they have improved it.

Yes to item degradation, yes to repair, yes to crafting aid, survival items and ammo. Yes to the workbench, reloading bench, campfires and hotplates. More is always better. You want to add in Minecraft-ing? Fine. Layer it on top of the great system NV expanded from FO3. Please use New Vegas as the guide to further expand crafting and repair, not Skyrim. Two separate franchises; two separate systems.

Also, not to beat a dead horse,but skills are not really gone (save for the weapon skills). They have been merged into a comprehensive SPECIAL/Perk system.

As for the worry about selling weapons for fortunes, it seems the new crafting mechanic will make weapons more valuable as part sources than cap sources

Their silence about the things I've personally grown accustomed to in Fallout worries me. I hope it's more to surprise us, rather than them deferring disappointment.

Skills are still in, just in a different form (and I actually think this potentially fixes a lot of the foundational balance issues in the systemic mess that was the Fallout 3 ruleset, such as it was.)

I'm not too worried about item degradation actually. Fallout 1 and 2 did just fine without them - its not an integral aspect of the franchise (and I think crafting is going to play a big role here.)

Not every decision you dislike is because of these mythical "casuals."

The game is finished. If it isn't in there already, it won't be.

I've no problem with the way skerks (skill-perks ... I coined a new word!) seem to work. As to repair, while I like it in theory I always felt weapons deteriorated way too fast for my tastes so I don't mind seeing degradation go away.

I'm sure it will be back for Fallout 4, I don't know why it was not included in Skyrim, although that didn't ruin the game for me or anything. In a post apocalyptic game it does makes since to have weapon deterioration but if its not in there I won't be losing sleep.

At this point - from everything that's been shown, examined, and discussed ad nauseam - it appears item degradation is not making a return in FO4. I'm okay with that, given that item degradation was a very bland system that only served to have players carry a spare copy of their favorite weapon to use for repairs. Now, if they had found a way to expand and improve upon it, sure. But it seems their focus was on adding settlements, weapon customization, and the game world itself. If they couldn't figure out how to make item degradation/repair better, I'm glad they simply scrapped it. Perhaps a modder will reintroduce it, new and improved. Until then, I'm not in the least bothered by its absence.

The removal of skills I'm reserving judgment on until I play the game. So far, it doesn't seem too bad, given how the SPECIAL perk chart works. But I'm not gonna give it an endorsemant or condemnation without first experiencing it.

I wasn't convinced at first, but I think merging the perks and skill system will do a lot for Fallout 4.

I was already all for Bethesda placing the Special Stats front and center.

Merging perks in to Stats just means that I can't start the game with a Charisma of one and end the game with a 100 in Speech and Barter.

Now if you start the game with a Charisma of one and don't use any perks to increase your Charisma or get perks to help with persuasion and barter, then you will end the game with about the same level of ability that you started with.

That will be a real change and should make for some interesting play thoughs.

Even for weapons, there will be perks that provide in game effects like increasing zoom or reducing recoil.

I'm wondering if Fallout 4 does well, will Bethesda bring Stats back to the Elder Scrolls series?

Each series should have its own mechanics but I think only having three stats made the Dragonborns play a lot a like.

I'm really hoping that you won't be able to be the guild master for the Fighters, Thieves, and Mage guild simultaneously.

And having Stats play a major part would really increase replay value.

I'll agree that weapons degraded too fast in past.

I think the weapon modding possibilities will more than make up for not having weapon degradation if it comes to that.

If item degradation was still included it would only be armor and not weapons.

Also I do believe it has been scrapped, only applies to power armor now.

I wouldn't mind seeing weapon/armor degradation come back in Fallout 4. It wasn't the best system in Fallout 3/NV but it was still a concept I welcomed to the series. I would like to see it come back in a new and improved form, one that can fit into the new focus on crafting. If we're going to be scavenging around for parts to craft, why not scavenge for parts to repair our equipment? Perfect opportunity to improve on the repair system I say.

As for skills, as has already been mentioned, they're in the game in a different form. And honestly, I'm rather interested in seeing this new system with the attributes and perks, so I'm okay with this new step away from the traditional system. I don't see how it is "dumbed down" or "casualized" in any way. The attributes have been greatly improved upon compared to the older system where some attributes were poorly designed and useless. The way your character improves through perks is based entirely around their attributes and they way you build them. All I see is improvement and changes done to a system that was flawed before. I personally welcome it.

Im outright glad that degradation because yhe mechanic wasnt very good in the first place (only a few hours into the first fallout 3 character and I vad enough supplies to never have my gear break) and IMO they are replacing it with a much more interesting system with the part customization.


No skills could be a bad thing but im willing to give it a try before dismissing it.

Wait did I miss something? Was weapon/armor degradation confirmed to be out?

We have literally learned nothing since gamescon arguably since quakecon.

Just more speculation based on what released so far.

Oh ok good. I was afraid I missed something! Lol

I personally like how "skills" are now handled. In the past, if your Lockpicking skill was 30, those extra 5 points really meant nothing. It was either 25, or 50 to be effective - anything in between was fairly pointless, other than as a means to an end. So now, instead, we have perks to simulate the same thing, but without the pointless parts. Fine by me!

As to weapon/armor degradation, first - we have no confirmation one way or the other whether it is in or out on anything beyond Power Armor. We have speculation, sure. And a lot of people assume that if there is no confirmation, it doesn't exist (weapon/armor degradation, story, and so forth). And second - let's say it's out. I don't think that will be a deal-breaker. The fact that we will now be modding weapons like crazy with everything we can find, to create new weapons, will make a whole new situation regarding weapons - and likely armor as well. Perhaps we will end up scrapping some weapons to get parts to improve other weapons? If that ends up being true, players will be destroying weapons all by themselves with no need for any degradation system.

Also, games are not changing because of "casuals". I have been a gamer since the best home computer had 4K of RAM and programs were on a cassette tape. I've seen games come and go. You want "non-casual"? Go play the games I grew up on. The games where if you die, you start over from the beginning of the game. You have 3 lives and unless you earn a new one, it's "game over" - no reloading. You want to know why we don't have games like that anymore? Because people got tired of them. Not everybody enjoys that type of game. Games change because players want to have fun - and game developers want to give them games that they can have fun playing. A player can be hardcoe and still not enjoy what YOU consider "hard core".

I mod my games with as many "realism" and difficulty mods as I can. Eating, drinking, falling damage, backpack items taking damage in battle, or just from exposure to the elements, food going bad, sleeping, etc. Does that make me "hard core"? Maybe. But, then, I like to use V.A.T.S., I'm not into FPS gaming, I like to role-play, I don't enjoy starting over, so if I die, I reload from my last save point - and yes, I tend to save fairly often. So, am I now a "casual"? Depends on your definition I guess. To me, I'm just a gamer - as you are.

Now, if you want to design games that you enjoy playing, GREAT! DO IT! If you want to design games that don't cater to whatever you consider to be "casuals", that's your choice, and that's fine by me. I will say, however, that the more narrow you definition of "hardcoe" is, and the wider your definition of "casual", the smaller you are making your potential market. I'm not speaking from the cheap seats either. I used to own a game store (board games, RPGs, etc - not video games). Now, one thing we had tons of was Magic the Gathering. Made us decent money. I could have said, "That's it! I'm just selling Magic and none of those crappy card games." But ya know what? Every weekend, we had a Pokemon tournament and brought in several hundred dollars. We had kids from 7 or 8 years old, on up - including some advlts - playing Pokemon. If I had turned those people away, simply because I considered Pokemon to be a "lesser" game, I would have turned away hundreds of dollars each week. Not a smart business move. I probably could have done it - but my business would not have done as well as it did while I was running it.

Finally, Bethesda has said that Fallout 4 is "done". They are bug testing now. Anything you want them to put into the game at this point, if it isn't in there right now, won't be on release day. Now, maybe they will add it in a patch, or a DLC, but you're too late to the party to change anything for release. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the ride. Who knows, you may actually enjoy what they have done. And hey - who knows - maybe weapon/armor degradation is in the game and they just haven't told us yet. We'll know in about 57 days (or less).

I don't entirely disagree with your point about how skills worked in Fallout 3, but I still prefer more skills as opposed to a consolidated less. How the skills are handled could have been better, sure, but when it comes to RPGs, less in never more.

True enough, Bethesda has not yet "officially" stated whether or not weapon/item degradation is in Fallout 4, aside from power armor. However, after following the videogame industry religiously over the past decade, I am most definitely not optomistic that it will be in Fallout 4. The most fundamental change in the industry within the last 15 years is that of less emphasis on integrity and creativity and more emphasis on following trends and simplifying. We may not know for a fact at this point, but I'm going ahead and calling it that weapon/item degradation is not in Fallout 4, save for power armor.

I too have been gaming for a long, long time. The first games I ever played were on ColecoVision, the Atari 2600, the TurboGrafx-16, the Sega Genesis and Windows 95. True enough, we are no longer limited to simple 8,16, or 32 bit platformers. However, if you look at things like difficulty and complexity, there is absolutely no question that, overall, games have gotten dumbed down. This is especially noticeable if you look at games released from 2000 to 2010. And for the record, I don't have a problem with the existence of casual games. I do have a problem when normal games become casualized, usually over the the course of several sequels, in order to shift focus to a new, larger, more mainstream audience.

As for marketshare, I could honestly not care any less. I can appreciate that the videogame industry is a business, and businesses need money to survive. However, how a business obtains that money reveals their true nature. I want to develop games because I love the industry and would like to give back what it has given me. I want to make the kind of games that I would want to play. Since I don't answer to shareholders or investors, I don't feel the need to cater to anyone. I can appreciate your anology about your board game store, but it doesn't apply to me at all, nor does it any longer apply to this era. We are in the midst of an indie game revolution in which anyone anywhere can fund any game without the need of publishers or retailers whatsoever. In case you haven't been keeping up with current events, videogame retailers are dying out. This is particularly true for GameStop, as they are shifting their focus to phones, tablets, and credit cards. Digital distribution is the name of the game now, and that benefits everyone, especially indie developers.

I'm still planning on purchasing Fallout 4. I'm just sick and tired of seeing mediocrity being accepted left and right in my favorite entertainment medium.

I voted yes for armor and weapons degradation.

According to some pcgamer.com employees who went to Quakecon 2015 they asked Pete Hines and Todd Howard about CND in Fallout 4 and Pete Hines said we won't be talking about that yet and Todd Howard gave very little details about CND when the pcgamer .com employees talked about Power Armor having health.

They did confirm there is a visual inspection type of system in Fallout 4 where you can look at weapons and see if they are corroded, rusty, ect.

*talks about casual gamers like that's a actual thing and not just a made up scapegoat*

Well there goes all credibility.