"Which would be more powerful, a Warrior without Smithing, or a Destro Mage without Enchanting?"

My computer runs at 10 fps, so it's really hard for me to get a good "Feel" of how the different playstyles work. What I'm really curious is to get the opinions of someone who has played both as a destruction mage and as a warrior (without smithing at all), and see how they compare?

The usual complaint for Destruction seems to be that it takes forever to kill anything, but how does that really turn out? Anyone who knows, please post and let me know, it will help me develop an idea I've been working on.

Wait a minute, Destruction + Enchanting? I don't remembering enchanting my spells.
And you seem to be asking two or three different questions.

Even without smithing, magic is still somewhat underpowered. In terms of killing speed, magic is far superior than weapons without smithing. However, when one realizes how to use the Bash+Attack combo, magic becomes severely obsolete. With the Bash+attack combo bosses like dragons, dragon priests, warlords, etc all fall with ease 1v1. The only advantage magic has is the ability to clear out the trash minions faster before moving on to the boss. However, spells like slowing time, or being sneaky can also help weapon users clear the trash mobs before the boss.

How to make magic better? It needs a staggering effect for spells similar to a strong bash. If I recall there is a mod that does this if magic spells are casted up close. Without the ability to stagger bosses, magic users will have times where they can take serious damage facing dragons, giants, mammoths,etc.

By that I meant, robes that decrease magicka cost. Theoretically they serve the same purpose as Smithing does for Warrior-types, but it doesn't, really.

What I'm asking is "Which would be more powerful, a Warrior without Smithing, or a Destro Mage without Enchanting?"

Just like the Bows vs. Destruction thread, the choice is easy.

Weapons scale and can be buffed with potions/poisons (even without the alchemy skill). Destruction does not/cannot.

Impact perk from destruction talent tree says hello.

The reason I ask this is because theoretically the best damage you can get for, say, one handed, is 15 damage per attack for maces, and you can attack maybe twice a second. That damage can be increased of course, but so can the damage done by spells(By upgrading to better spells, which seem to scale far faster, admittedly without any perks to improve that damage. No weapon, for example, can do as much damage as a dual cast adept spell can do in a single hit.

Warrior by a country mile.

When destro without enchanting runs out of magicka (few casts) the dps drops to nothing.

Right now...Magic is still king to me because it does the same Large damage sneaking or not.

Where as Melee Weapons have to factor in Sneaking Crit, No Sneaking Crit, Armor negating the effects of your Melee Damage.

Also, Most weapons to better WITH Enchants..I've had an Iron Mace with small amount of Fire Damage slowly burn the guy to death with my swing...so it did more versus him being able to block/negate my swings to almost no damage.

Magic Resistance = Switch spells. lol

Nord? Switch to Fire/Lightning
Dunmer? Switch to Frost/Lightning
IF all else fails: Switch to Lightning and Dual Cast.

Storm Atronach? Switch to Fire/Ice spells. etc...

Can't do that with weapons. Switching between Axes/Swords/Maces means nothing if they guy has a shield, even two-handers don't make much difference.

Does it really drop so badly, though? From what I'm seeing here, it seems that a mage could do more damage until their magicka runs out, and then a bit less. For example, dual-cast ice storm will do about 150 damage per second per cast, at level 60 in destruction.

Compare that to what unsmithed weapons do; An elven sword does 11 damage. Now assume we dual wield, that goes up to 22 damage, and lets just say you can attack 1.5 times per second, so make it 33 damage for simplicity sake. With the relevant perks invested(dual flurry, level 3 bladesman) they do about 60 damage per second, and about double that with power attacks, bringing you up to about 120 until your stamina runs out, and then you go down to 60 again.

It seems to me that the two, when smithing is not used, are actually fairly well balanced.

Warrior definitely. I am a one handed 100 and and I don't smith and it's amazingly overpowered.

Cheers

I could say the same about Weapons and Stamina.

And before you think about it, He said doing Enchanting, said nothing about picking up random/better weapons/better gear off of Loot Or Buying.

Smithing on a Warrior is Key because of upgrading it, I don't have to upgrade my enchants to be a better mage. Infact you can go 1 to 30 by buying enchanted robes and finding + to Magicka Rings etc.

I can pick up a Better Axe but it will only do me good if the mofo I'm fighting isn't a Bandit Chief. I've went at a Bandit Chief who was wearing All Iron with an Iron Mace that did 8 points of fire damage, he tore through all my armor and my shield like it was butter, and I had full Ebony Upgraded...I switched to magic, he had no resistance to it, nor will he ever besides his racial. And I had sparks/Flames...

That Bandit Chief was completely decimated by magic...where My Ebony War Axe + Dwarven Shield (upgraded) WITH One-Hander Perks couldn't hurt him versus him banging on my shield with a two-handed Iron Mace.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying; when you dont use smithing at all, magic becomes an extremely viable alternative.

The main problem is that you cannot boost your own spells at all, like smithing can, Not that the skill itself is underpowered.

Where did you get your numbers? Ice storm does 40 damage per single cast. You can improve the damage via perk up to 60. Dual cast it for 120. Dual cast perk for 132.

All of my numbers came from http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Destruction.

As for magicka, are you denying just enchanting or vendor enchanted gear as well? Because if you allow the latter, you can cut the mana cost down by a huge amount. If you are not allowing both, magicka will run out very fast and with 1/3 the vanilla regen in combat, once you go OOM without any magicka regen enchant you are pretty much dead.




Dude sorry to say this but this story sounds more like tale of your incompetence with the game. I mean you have upgraded ebony gear and you are getting demolished by bandit chief. The same bandit chief that you killed with sparks/flames magic. What. The. Hell.

I think a better question is who does better without crafting, a pure warrior or a pure wizard. Very early on the warrior, then once the wizard gets some gear and a staff the wizard takes the lead, and then end game they're pretty close once the warrior gets spellbreaker and very strong end game one-hand swords. Double dremora lord even without any spell cost reduction gear is affordable and very powerful but the warrior is basically unkillable.

I don't think people realize....Flames is a pretty nasty spell when Dual Wielding it...

Flames = DOT + Damage upfront+Continual Spray...versus Swinging a Mace that does X Amount of Damage.

Sparks versus Mages = I drain their Magicka + Their Health...which means they have to resort in weak melee attacks...while you jump around, gaining your magicka back...by the time he is that close his health is down, and you're about to hit him with a Bolt or spike. This is of course under level 40.

I already saw the Ice Spear...and thats [censored] nasty in itself/would do more damage on a Warrior who doesn't Sneak.

And as far as it goes, Mages should always be using pots due to broken Magicka Regen. I use pots on any class at this time due to mechanics not working as should.

I'm just avoiding the SKILLS THEMSELVES(enchanting and smithing), not random loot or stuff from shops.

As for my stats, I just multiplied it out, I think correctly...maybe not? Ice Stormx2=80 damage, *1.2=96 damage*1.5=144. Then i just rounded up, guess I should have rounded down, but it was fairly close.

Flames and sparks are alright but you can't play a pure wizard with just those spells. Early on I found myself having to sneak attack with a bow before the enemy got close enough to use my flames if I wanted to kill them without taking damage. Once you learn firebolt, using just magic becomes much more viable.

I'm not arguing about the spells themselves, I'm just trying to contrast combat and destruction directly. From what i've seen so far, everyone seems to think combat beats magic out by a mile, but the numbers just aren't adding up to that conclusion. I'm not entirely sure what's going on here.

Endgame I would agree due to Loot you can pick up...but on a flat rate, you're not going to just STAND There (As a player) and take hits..you're going to Kite/Run/Juke and Jive, versus a Warrior who:
A) Even when blocks HAS to take damage and is doing ZERO damage due to being that close and having to block due to opponent hitting him.

Dual Wielding is VERY effective at lower levels due to that combo/spin attack...usually one of those + one more strike = dead anything at low levels. Higher Levels I do not know..I think that leaves you open, and as a PLAYER...you wouldn't stand there and let him do that to you.

I.E. If your opponent is dual wield (Forsworn are notorious for this and are tough to fight as a melee warrior) as a Mage, you're going to cast, cast...cast...and keep casting, Move...cast...taking no damage, and waiting for Regen to commence/slowly. Versus a Warrior who if he stops swinging, he is stuck. Has to deal with Ranged, so he has to close the gap WHILE taking damage (Dodging Arrow users on all my characters is tough, even my Rogue/Dark Brotherhood Master...@_@). Then you have to deal with Magica Resistance...

If both not chugging POTS, Mage comes out the winner. Warrior would have to chug pots or face death due to health regen is almost non-existant in combat, and sometimes out of combat is still slow so the next fight = one hit dead. (And Dragons do come out of no where!)

Personally, I still say mages are better...because as a warrior...you have to chug HEALTH and STAM Pots, versus a good mage who only has to chug Magicka Pots.

Mages though...Run around...Jump, Range...Kite...Mohammed Ali Process, FLOAT LIKE A BUTTER FLY! STING LIKE A BEE!

You got a wrong multiplier in there, the 80(1.2) part. I assume that that's from dual cast perk talent.

Unperked dual casting is 200% damage for 200% extra magicka.

Perked dual casting is 220% damage for 280% extra magicka.

So correct formula is 40(1.5)(2.2).

What you did was 40(2)(1.5)(1.2).

It's 132 damage per cast.

If you include shop/loot destruction wins because you can cut cost down to about 4% or lower just from vendor items.

The Mages have more options , they are not as good in straight damage per second , but they can do so many things depending the opponent and situation .

Even without enchanting , you can find some powerful robes and enchanted stuffs to wear , whereas a sword and shield warrior is much weaker without smithing since he only depends on his sword blows . The Mage does not , he can carry a staff , he can dual cast powerful spell , Altmer can regen magicka quickly , alteration is pretty powerful for defence , he can paralyze and deal with mobs easily with Illusion etc ...

Warrior is superior to Mage in Skyrim , but without smithing , i'd say the Mage edges it , unless you use the most powerful items on your warriors , but until you get them , it's going to be tough at higher difficulties settings (master ) , just my opinion

If you use only destruction , you're quite weak , then i'd say the warrior without smithing is better in this case , at least he can protect himself properly with a shield

Okay, thanks for the correction. Even in that case, however, don't they seem equal? At the very least, they seem to be quite close, much closer than many of the complaints seem to feel.

Flames/Sparks/Frostbite has worked wonders. Usually If I'm fighting Lowbie Bandits/Thugs = My AOE Smaller Damage moves, if a Bandit Cheif or DRAGON Priest...Bolts/Spikes.

I can literally my Ice Spike's move by Dual Casting OR Do double Dose of Damage with Two Ice Spikes in each hand, Shoot one, RUN move, SHOOT the Other.

A good hit is: Two Ice spikes or Lightning Bolts one in each hand (NOT Dual Cast, Dual WIELD) and sneaking. I usually one hit folks and from afar, spending no "Ammo" like Bows do.

As a warrior, you also have the ability to go bows...so...Warriors to me have the advantage when it comes to SNEAK Crits. <----Thats the game changer.

Are you a warrior with good sneak? Do you have sneak perks? You can one hit anything, versus a Mage who doesn't get the sneak perk/crits + If you don't kill that ONE guy on the first hit, all his buddies PLUS The guy you hit comes at you.

Except for the part where you can swing your weapons with 0 stamina. Magicka is infinitely more limiting in that regard. Your DPS drops to 0 at 0 magicka.

Also, bows.