[quinnnn]

So, how's the Brumbek conspiracy shaping up ?

[Daniel Brown]

Oh, I suppose its in the main download only, because I've searched for it everywhere, including my OMOD package, which doesn't have it. Guess I'll have to redownload the whole thing again. Just a suggestion, maybe add the manual as a separate download at Nexus?

[Lizzie]

It's viewable on Nexus by clicking the 'View Readme' button in the options panel.

@ shadeMe: You'd have to ask the mastermind himself.

[Cccurly]

If you think it's a mistake to have interior weather lighting, then perhaps this mod isn't for you, because you can't have the rest of the weather system without it, and so you're only left with Real Lights, which you've already said you don't want to use.

Well, can I have outside weather from All Natural combined with Storms and Sounds interior weather sounds? They will be synchronized?

[Lloyd Muldowney]

It's viewable on Nexus by clicking the 'View Readme' button in the options panel.

:facepalm: Didn't knew it was there all the time. Sorry.

[Natasha Callaghan]

Well, can I have outside weather from All Natural combined with Storms and Sounds interior weather sounds? They will be synchronized?

No. You can't have weather from All Natural without the interior components.

[Erin S]

No. You can't have weather from All Natural without the interior components.

Ic. What about Enchanced Weather then?

[Mark Churchman]

[EDIT] Nevermind

[Tha King o Geekz]

Its dark with RL at night, but bright when day with RL or without. Its not excessive brighting problem. Directional sunlight isnt blocked by meshes for Oblivion engine (or any other engine without realtime shadows support for objects or lightmaps or raytracing (raytracing isnt for realtime for modern hardware of course)), its going trough them. Look at the brighter, than in vanilla game, floor and some walls in your mod - its from directional light. I'll show it.

We're not using "directional" sunlight. We don't mess with any of the cell's lighting values at all. The only thing that's done is turning on the "behaves as exterior" flag and assigning a climate to the cell.

As far as balancing RL against the weather lighting, that's virtually impossible. If we balance against vanilla lighting, people will complain things are too dark. If we balance against RL, people complain it's too bright. There's no happy middle ground between the two. Utopia does not exist. Locations that are too dark at night can have lights added, but then they'll be too bright during the day.

The only solution that's viable is to create a whole slew of different candle/torch/flame light nodes that are JUST the flame while at the same time swapping out every last light source they go to with "off" versions, then attaching every last flame node to the day/night lighting cycle in use outdoors. You have absolutely no idea how long that would take. It just isn't worth the time, and you can't shortcut things by attaching the vanilla sources to the cycle either. Doing that risks those items vanishing for good if the mod is uninstalled at the wrong time.

The only other option available is to split the RL module into pieces, but even that's not looking feasible since it means the actual light source definitions need to go somewhere in a common master file. The only one we have that much control over is the AN ESM file.

[gandalf]

Ic. What about Enchanced Weather then?

Yes, you could use that.

[ezra]

The only thing that's done is turning on the "behaves as exterior" flag and assigning a climate to the cell.

That what the problem is. Exterior always use directional light for the sun and it cant be switched off (except for the night of course, but then moon appears with its own directional light). Theres solution tho, but it may be impossible with your weather system - to make optional plugin without "behaves as exterior" flag for interiors. With this"seeing trough windows" feature must be disabled as well. So we will have sounds for weather in interiors and correct lighting. Maybe its worty to check how "Weather Inside" is working without triggering "behaves as exterior" flag.

Yes, you could use that.

Thats good.

[Claudia Cook]

Theres solution tho, but it may be impossible with your weather system - to make optional plugin without "behaves as exterior" flag for interiors. With this"seeing trough windows" feature must be disabled as well. So we will have sounds for weather in interiors and correct lighting. Maybe its worty to check how "Weather Inside" is working without triggering "behaves as exterior" flag.

You are correct - it is impossible. The 'behave as exterior' flag is the only reason you get interior weather effects at all, and the see through windows are brought about using edited meshes.

Weather Inside does it pretty messily in comparison.

I think you'd better stop here before you give us all heart attacks. (Especially Brumbek, disabling see through windows, honestly.) We've put a heck of a lot of time and effort into getting things the way they are, and if there was any better or simpler way about it, we would have done it that way.

You're essentially asking us to throw away years of work just so you can aviod witnessing an engine bug. I don't think so. Just don't use the mod.

[Juanita Hernandez]

You're essentially asking us to throw away years of work just so you can aviod witnessing an engine bug. I don't think so. Just don't use the mod.

This.

[IM NOT EASY]

You're essentially asking us to throw away years of work just so you can aviod witnessing an engine bug.

Its not a bug. Its how lighting works in Oblivion. What is more essential for game atmosphere - more visual weather stuff visible trough the windows with messed up interior lighting in whole game or correct lighting and only weather sounds inside? I'll pick up second. Well, whatever, good luck with the mod guys.

[Danger Mouse]

It is a bug. The engine is bugged. Is lighting supposed to behave that way? No. Does it? Yes. Therefore it is a bug.

That is a choice that you must make for yourself. And thank you.

[carla]

It is a bug. The engine is bugged. Is lighting supposed to behave that way? No. Does it? Yes. Therefore it is a bug.

No, not at all. This is how DirectX working without lightmaps or z-buffering. Check any game which support lightmaps or/and realtime shadows and can have it disabled (Gothic 3 for example or Crysis) and you'll see the same issue. So yes, this is how DirectX lighting must behave without these features.Therefore its not a bug.

[Emma Copeland]

Except it is a bug, whether you accept that or not really isn't our problem. There's no need to hang around to worry about it if you've decided to move on to other weather mods.

[Robert Bindley]

Really why do you think its a bug. Just do more research on subjects before stating the things it seems you dont have any idea about. Lighting is always passing trough meshes, its a normal behaviour without additional features which I mentioned before and Oblivion dont have these features, except shadows for npcs and creatures. Disable shadows in Oblivion for example and youll see normally lighted ground texture on the place where shadow was before. Its a fact thats lighting is passing trough characters model. Same with any other meshes. Same with any other game engines. I cant explain more simpler. Only with raytracing or photon mapping atm you can really block lighting from passing trough meshes and with them we dont need any directx/opengl realtime shadows algorithms nor lightmaps. Whatever, think as you want. Bye.

[Kevin Jay]

Yes, bye, plenty of us here are well aware of the limitations of the game and have accepted them and are just fine with them. Oblivion doesn't block light. We got that.

That doesn't make what you're saying right though. Rather than being condescending about it, you could instead try linking to useful articles on the subject. People have way more respect for that sort of thing than someone who drives by, lets loose with a ton of unfounded criticism, and then declares the respondents don't know what they're talking about.

[amhain]

I think this is nearing troll country.

...Don't feed 'em...

[Leilene Nessel]

I'm not sure if it's "normal" behavior but should there be radical changes of weather?
Like, the weather is a relatively clear and all of a sudden the sky goes black and it rains?

And while I'm at it, does anyone have any tip for optimising oblivion for Real Lights?
I just discovered that changing the number of shadows or the resolution has absolutely no bearing on the framerate(at least in the dungeon where I'm testing)...

[Josh Lozier]

Ok, one more reply from me.
Unfondled criticism? I just said about some obvious mod errors, thats all. Which sadly cant be fixed without removing some mod features. What articles do you want? Heres some about lightmaps, z-buffer, some shadows types and raytracing. Its really easy to find by yourself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightmap
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-buffering
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stencil_shadows
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_tracing_%28graphics%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon_mapping

I think this is nearing troll country.

...Don't feed 'em...

:rolleyes:

[Nathan Risch]

Unfondled criticism?

This awesome phrase kept what might have been trolling from being a waste of time . . . I'm so saying "un-fondled criticism" and "well-fondled criticism" from now on.

[katsomaya Sanchez]

Ok, one more reply from me.
Unfondled criticism? I just said about some obvious mod errors, thats all. Which sadly cant be fixed without removing some mod features. What articles do you want? Heres some about lightmaps, z-buffer, some shadows types and raytracing. Its really easy to find by yourself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightmap
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-buffering
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stencil_shadows
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_tracing_%28graphics%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon_mapping

Right. So. Since I trust Wikipedia articles about as far as I can throw them.....

Ray Tracing appears from a quick hop through Google to not be available in DX9 unless using Shader 3.0. Oblivion is a DX9 game, which makes very little if any use of Shader 3.0. I'm sure wrinklyninja would know more about the details. Lots of Google hits indicating it made it's true debut in DX11 though. So that's out. Oblivion can't be built around something that wasn't available in 2005. Yes, 2005. The game was released in 2006 which means they spent 2005 working on it. Likely most of 2004 and part of 2003 even.

http://weblogs.asp.net/justin_rogers/archive/2004/03/30/104498.aspx was being talked about as some kind of new thing back in 2004. It might have been too new at the time to be considered. It appears to have been available in DX7, and from the description appears to be at least partially used in OB (landscape seems to act this way). Which leaves open the possibility that they intended to use it with statics as well but it isn't working properly. Hence it would be a bug in the game.

Z-buffering looks like it would be more related to fog, not light behavior with statics.

Lightmaps appear from descriptions to be performance hungry and might not have been considered for that reason.

So yes. "Unfondled" criticism sure seems to fit since we're dealing with what looks like a partially broken implementation of Photon Mapping in Oblivion. Remember, the game was designed with the XBox in mind and it's likely the poor little console couldn't handle the more performance hungry options that were available in 2004/2005.

[JERMAINE VIDAURRI]

You're all crazy!!! Just had to throw in my input...

So, how's the Brumbek conspiracy shaping up ?

Brumbek knows all, sees all. One might say 'Brumbek really knows where his towel's at.' (Reference to HHGTTG for the n00bs.)

Anyway, been working on meshes for just about 8 hours today. Just a couple things to fix. Chorrol is the project that never ends. But perhaps if I work a LOT tomorrow I can make my deadline. Twill be quite a day to celebrate once it's done. Thank you, resume activities minions.