[RELz] Weather: All Natural, Thread 29 : IV - Oblivion

» Mon May 16, 2011 4:59 pm

Whoa, easy there. I'll turn off my HDR and have a look at things to see whether I think you're right about the sunlight values or not: logically, the should be lower, but that doesn't always map out to they look better lower. If I think they need changing, I'll change them.

As for your preferences regarding the color tinting of the weather, that can be altered in the ini without needing to hand change values, just increase the level of red in weathers to make them warmer. In 1.1 you'll also be able to move fog distances back as you want (though this moves the fog start distance too).

» Tue May 17, 2011 8:53 am

I'll turn off my HDR and have a look at things to see whether I think you're right about the sunlight values or not: logically, the should be lower, but that doesn't always map out to they look better lower.

Try out those clear values I posted earlier then go into one of the IC shops on a clear day. I think you'll find there's a vast improvement in the look of the area. All the colour is back and the floor doesn't overwhelm the view like it did before. It blends in very nicely with the rest of the room. It might be more on the red/warm side that you may like, but that's my preference.

As for your preferences regarding the color tinting of the weather, that can be altered in the ini without needing to hand change values, just increase the level of red in weathers to make them warmer.

Sorry, but those settings just don't go far enough for me. I've already tried them. And as I mentioned, I completely overhauled the weather in Fallout after having a look at Fellout. I didn't have the luxury of being able to simply copy existing values since the default was a post-apocalyptic look and I wanted something more natural. So after much experimenting I came up with my own values for everything in the game, and I'm transferring them to this mod because I like how they look. At least the clear sky values, and the night. I was just in Skingrad looking up at the night sky and I saw dark blue clouds and a dark blue sky, and I just had to do something about it.

In 1.1 you'll also be able to move fog distances back as you want (though this moves the fog start distance too).

Well that kind of defeats the purpose for alot of weather patterns really. I don't necessarily want to end up with a value of 80,000 with no fog if I push the end distance to 250,000. That's a pretty good distance to not have any fog in and will pretty much flatten any mountains in the foreground.

» Mon May 16, 2011 6:00 pm

You do realize that it's impossible to tune something like this to work in all 3 lighting modes, right? There's a reason why NW came with an HDR and a normal version. Values for one make the other look like crap in almost all cases since they don't handle brightness and/or coloration the same way.

I also don't think my hostility radar is malfunctioning here, you're coming across incredibly pushy at the very least. What works for Fallout doesn't necessarily work for Oblivion. Your personal preferences don't necessarily fit with mine, wrinklyninja's, or any random sampling you might come up with.

I'm certainly not inclined to just go around making radical changes to things without having a chance to sample it at the very least, and certainly will not just accept something that may come out looking like crap in HDR in a mod we've spent considerable effort making look GOOD in HDR.

» Tue May 17, 2011 6:07 am

Well that kind of defeats the purpose for alot of weather patterns really. I don't necessarily want to end up with a value of 80,000 with no fog if I push the end distance to 250,000. That's a pretty good distance to not have any fog in and will pretty much flatten any mountains in the foreground.

But that aspect is going to be optional via the ini for people who want an immersion aspect only currently available with conflicting plugins like redbags fog. Or people who want to lower distant aspects and mask those tweaks with fog for performance purposes. Or even those who would like to introduce a bit of nostalgia similar to Pseron Wyrd Morrowind fog.

» Tue May 17, 2011 4:20 am

You do realize that it's impossible to tune something like this to work in all 3 lighting modes, right? There's a reason why NW came with an HDR and a normal version. Values for one make the other look like crap in almost all cases since they don't handle brightness and/or coloration the same way.

Look, all I'm trying to point out is that you've been overlooking an important aspect of an area's lighting. You've done absolutely nothing with the Sunlight values and are simply using the vanilla ones, which aren't necessarily the best for the situation. If you aren't even willing to have a look at that, then fine. But you can at least get the values down to a reasonable level, which they definitely aren't now.

What works for Fallout doesn't necessarily work for Oblivion.

What I've done so far is looking pretty good to me.

Your personal preferences don't necessarily fit with mine, wrinklyninja's, or any random sampling you might come up with.

Agreed, and I'm not trying to shove my tastes down your throat. All I'm saying is that you should take a look at those values and try a little experimenting with them.

I'm certainly not inclined to just go around making radical changes to things without having a chance to sample it at the very least,

I gave you some values to try out. Look at them. And this is the last time I'm going to mention anything on the subject. If you aren't even willing to listen to my advice, then I'll just do my own thing like I'm already doing. I've been trying to offer a suggestion that will improve your work, but so far I feel like I'm just beating my head against the wall. And frankly, I don't understand your resistance. I feel you're being extremely close minded about this. It really doesn't matter to me what you do with my advice, I know how to do things for myself. I don't have to wait around for you to get around to it.

» Tue May 17, 2011 1:13 am

But that aspect is going to be optional via the ini for people who want an immersion aspect only currently available with conflicting plugins like redbags fog. Or people who want to lower distant aspects and mask those tweaks with fog for performance purposes. Or even those who would like to introduce a bit of nostalgia similar to Pseron Wyrd Morrowind fog.

Well that's fine, but it won't suit my purposes. I'd rather control those values myself through the CS. I just find that having a really long fog distance looks a lot more natural, but I don't want to lose the fog in the foreground either.

» Mon May 16, 2011 11:24 pm

Well, now I feel a little foolish. I had it wrong too. You don't want to adjust the Sunlight values, you want to turn it right off. Sunlight is directional, so it's going to shift position depending on the time of day. Unless you can control it so it only comes in through the windows and not the walls, then you don't want that to happen in an interior space. So turn it right off and adjust your lighting strictly with Ambient just like you would with any interior. At any rate, the default Sunlight values now being used for clear weather are far too high.

» Mon May 16, 2011 6:46 pm

Well, now I feel a little foolish. I had it wrong too. You don't want to adjust the Sunlight values, you want to turn it right off. Sunlight is directional, so it's going to shift position depending on the time of day. Unless you can control it so it only comes in through the windows and not the walls, then you don't want that to happen in an interior space. So turn it right off and adjust your lighting strictly with Ambient just like you would with any interior. At any rate, the default Sunlight values now being used for clear weather are far too high.

I quite like the sunlight being directional though, even if it does go through the walls. In the interests of appeasemant though, I will investigate this.

I think Arthmoor is being resistant because you're framing your opinions objectively: "At any rate, the default Sunlight values now being used for clear weather are far too high." rather than "At any rate, I think the default Sunlight values now being used for clear weather are far too high.". It's a small thing, but it makes a big difference when read - ATM your posts are coming across as very instructional and demanding rather than suggestive, it's just something I'm putting effort into ignoring on your behalf.

» Tue May 17, 2011 1:56 am

I quite like the sunlight being directional though, even if it does go through the walls. In the interests of appeasemant though, I will investigate this.

No you're right, it looks better with sunlight, even if it is directional. The area just ends up looking flat and lifeless if I try to match the Ambient colours/lighting to the ones outside.

I think Arthmoor is being resistant because you're framing your opinions objectively: "At any rate, the default Sunlight values now being used for clear weather are far too high." rather than "At any rate, I think the default Sunlight values now being used for clear weather are far too high."

Well I'm sorry, but I am being objective here. I have a fair amount of experience with modifying weather after overhauling Fallout, and now spending many hours so far on this mod. So I don't "think", I "know". And I've even provided some proof in the form of those values. I certainly don't claim to be an expert in the area, I'm still learning as I go along, but it seems pretty obvious that I've picked up a few things that neither Arthmoor or you have yet. And if Arthmoor resents that I'm being a bit forceful in my comments, I'm feeling resentful in his seeming attitude that I'm just some noob who doesn't know what he's talking about.

» Mon May 16, 2011 11:23 pm

No you're right, it looks better with sunlight, even if it is directional. The area just ends up looking flat and lifeless if I try to match the Ambient colours/lighting to the ones outside.

Well I'm sorry, but I am being objective here. I have a fair amount of experience with modifying weather after overhauling Fallout, and now spending many hours so far on this mod. So I don't "think", I "know". And I've even provided some proof in the form of those values. I certainly don't claim to be an expert in the area, I'm still learning as I go along, but it seems pretty obvious that I've picked up a few things that neither Arthmoor or you have yet. And if Arthmoor resents that I'm being a bit forceful in my comments, I'm feeling resentful in his seeming attitude that I'm just some noob who doesn't know what he's talking about.

Maybe you could post some Before and After Screen shots...

» Tue May 17, 2011 2:37 am

Maybe you could post some Before and After Screen shots...

I don't have to, I've already provided some values that anyone can try for themselves.

PS: Try these values for interior clear Sunlight, they're working pretty good for my game so far:

R: 192
G: 160
B: 112

» Tue May 17, 2011 10:15 am

I don't have to, I've already provided some values that anyone can try for themselves.

OK, Thanks...

Maybe I'll just write my own Mod while I'm at it.. :whistling:

» Mon May 16, 2011 10:20 pm

OK, Thanks...

Maybe I'll just write my own Mod while I'm at it.. :whistling:

Well I'm not sure what you expect me to do. I'm certainly not going to go to the trouble of setting up an account with some image sharing site just to prove a point, and screenshots aren't going to fix anything for you. Nor is that even my responsibility, it's not my mod. I've given you some values you can try in your own game and that's as much as I'm able to do. It's really not that hard to do yourself if you're so inclined.

» Tue May 17, 2011 9:49 am

Well I'm not sure what you expect me to do. I'm certainly not going to go to the trouble of setting up an account with some image sharing site just to prove a point, and screenshots aren't going to fix anything for you. Nor is that even my responsibility, it's not my mod. I've given you some values you can try in your own game and that's as much as I'm able to do. It's really not that hard to do yourself if you're so inclined.

http://www.imageshack.us allows you to upload for free and without an account. :wink_smile:

I know I won't change your mind; just pointing it out.

» Mon May 16, 2011 7:35 pm

Well I'm sorry, but I am being objective here.

Impossible. You are commenting on what you THINK looks better, that's inherently SUBjective, not objective.

I have a fair amount of experience with modifying weather after overhauling Fallout, and now spending many hours so far on this mod. So I don't "think", I "know".

That seems more than just slightly arrogant if you stop and think about it.

And I've even provided some proof in the form of those values.

You provided values you think look good. They don't constitute proof of anything one way or the other. The look of a weather mod is not something that can be objectively quantified. As i already said, it's all subjective.

And if Arthmoor resents that I'm being a bit forceful in my comments, I'm feeling resentful in his seeming attitude that I'm just some noob who doesn't know what he's talking about.

What I resent is someone out of the blue coming along basically saying "the mod looks like crap, fix it, and love it". You can read into that whatever you like, but I certainly didn't call you a clueless noob.

» Tue May 17, 2011 4:57 am

Impossible. You are commenting on what you THINK looks better, that's inherently SUBjective, not objective.

I was originally commenting on a problem I saw in certain weather types. I didn't need to make a subjective anolysis in order to determine that something was wrong. Granted it doesn't happen all the time, in fact I've been having a hard time reproducing it in order to provide a screenshot, but there is an issue under certain conditions. But even with conditions that aren't as extreme as some that I've encountered, there's room for improvement simply by experimenting with the Sunlight values. It wasn't put into the CS to be simply ignored, it's a tool to be used, and you haven't been doing so. Yes, much of what I'm doing is subjective, but I definitely saw certain conditions were this wasn't the case. There was clearly a problem.

You provided values you think look good. They don't constitute proof of anything one way or the other. The look of a weather mod is not something that can be objectively quantified. As i already said, it's all subjective.

And I've clearly stated that those values represent my own preference, on several occasions now. I posted them strictly so that you'd have some sort of basis of comparison, since you clearly don't realize what those settings can do. I certainly wasn't expecting you to adopt them as is, they were meant to be a starting point only.

What I resent is someone out of the blue coming along basically saying "the mod looks like crap, fix it, and love it".

I've never said that, or even implied it. I was trying to point out a problem with certain conditions, and also offering some suggestions as to how you could make some overall improvements in the areas that don't have extreme issues. Unfortunately that original intention seems to have spiraled out of control. If I thought the mod looked like crap, I wouldn't even bother to use it. I just see where there's room for improvement.

» Mon May 16, 2011 10:25 pm

Well I'm sorry, but I am being objective here. I have a fair amount of experience with modifying weather after overhauling Fallout, and now spending many hours so far on this mod. So I don't "think", I "know". And I've even provided some proof in the form of those values. I certainly don't claim to be an expert in the area, I'm still learning as I go along, but it seems pretty obvious that I've picked up a few things that neither Arthmoor or you have yet. And if Arthmoor resents that I'm being a bit forceful in my comments, I'm feeling resentful in his seeming attitude that I'm just some noob who doesn't know what he's talking about.

All the goodwill in the world cannot let me ignore this first sentence. You are stating an opinion. "Good" and "Bad" are opinions, as are "better" and "worse". They are not universal truths or constants. What you think is good, others may think is bad, and so it is subjective.

I'm going to ask that we stop this 'discussion'. I've already said I will look into things, and I will report back with my findings once I'm finished. Until then, this is just degenerating into a flaming, and I don't want this thread locked.

» Mon May 16, 2011 9:47 pm

Apologies if this has been answered elswhere, but I've been browsing the threads and haven't found anything regarding my query - is it safe to use Max Tael's Natural_Habitat.esp mod (from Natural Environments) with All Natural, to get the birds & insects that his mod adds?

» Tue May 17, 2011 12:23 pm

Apologies if this has been answered elswhere, but I've been browsing the threads and haven't found anything regarding my query - is it safe to use Max Tael's Natural_Habitat.esp mod (from Natural Environments) with All Natural, to get the birds & insects that his mod adds?

Yes, it sure is. Natural Habitat doesn't touch anything related to weather. I run them together with no issues. You can't use Natural Weather, but you can definitely use Natural Habitat.

@Arthmoor:
Do you remember which thread the HDR tweaks are located? Wrinklyninja said you made a plugin available for download. I'd like to test it out if the link is still good.

» Tue May 17, 2011 6:41 am

Yes, it sure is. Natural Habitat doesn't touch anything related to weather. I run them together with no issues. You can't use Natural Weather, but you can definitely use Natural Habitat.

Great, thanks!

» Mon May 16, 2011 10:41 pm

Do you remember which thread the HDR tweaks are located? Wrinklyninja said you made a plugin available for download. I'd like to test it out if the link is still good.

Here it is: http://www.4shared.com/file/0eQI3TEy/clearHDR.html.

» Tue May 17, 2011 3:39 am

ooo, thank you, wrinklyninja.

» Tue May 17, 2011 12:07 pm

Hmm, real life has kept me quite busy lately. I won't be able to finish the Mania stuff until two weeks probably. So I'm fine with releasing 1.1 without Mania. The only thing I need to fix for 1.1 is that one mesh error recently reported. I'll get that to you guys tonight.

» Tue May 17, 2011 1:46 am

Sorry to butt into another thread, but as this mod deals with windows a bit, and the resulting resources will be used in this mod I think I'm ok. Could anyone point me in the direction of what they think is the largest window in the vanilla game? Or perhaps which window is the widest and which is the tallest as these may not be the same. I need to have some idea what size to make my weather boxes.

Vac

» Tue May 17, 2011 4:16 am

Sorry to butt into another thread, but as this mod deals with windows a bit, and the resulting resources will be used in this mod I think I'm ok. Could anyone point me in the direction of what they think is the largest window in the vanilla game? Or perhaps which window is the widest and which is the tallest as these may not be the same. I need to have some idea what size to make my weather boxes.

Vac

Hmm, the Priory windows are large. The stained glass cathedrals windows also. Shivering Isles has some quite tall windows in the Mania buildings, those are probably the tallest of all. So those three types are what I'm thinking are the largest, hope that helps.

Originally posted in the UOP thread but Arthmoor suggested I post here. Here is some copypasta for ya.

However I would like to report a mesh that has a bad seam, if you will. The mesh is CheydinhalAbandonedInterior01.nif.

Actually, you must be using an old version. That seam was already fixed. However, upon inspecting I did find a few things I could fix to look nicer. So here's the updated mesh for Arthmoor:

http://www.4shared.com/file/_UMI1shN/AN-1-1-CheyAbandonedFix.html

So I'll keep working on Mania but we can put Mania off for 1.2 release if we all like. Thanks.