[priscillaaa]

There are some thunderstorm weathers that can be quite dark and that's intentional. You'd need to provide a specific weather ID for us to check on to see if it's right. As well as a time of day in-game to check it against.

[A Lo RIkIton'ton]

There are some thunderstorm weathers that can be quite dark and that's intentional. You'd need to provide a specific weather ID for us to check on to see if it's right. As well as a time of day in-game to check it against.

Thanks for responding. I know it was at noon (and 2pm), but I will read up on how to get the weather ID and post some detail when it happens again.

[Laura Samson]

Does All Natural create weather sounds(rain) inside Bank of Cyrodiil or should I download Storms & sound to remedy this?

[STEVI INQUE]

Thanks for responding. I know it was at noon (and 2pm), but I will read up on how to get the weather ID and post some detail when it happens again.

Grab my http://www.4shared.com/file/1XLXz0ka/Weather_Debug_Ring.html to do so.

Does All Natural create weather sounds(rain) inside Bank of Cyrodiil or should I download Storms & sound to remedy this?

It doesn't look like it's in the filter patch, so no, I don't think it does. You could get S&S, but then you'd also get both mods' sounds everywhere else.

[Dorian Cozens]

Bah, double post. So much stuff to cover, I missed most of it in the last one.

I've added links to TES Alliance and the three translations to the Mirrors tab on Nexus, and my paragraph of Immersive Interiors integration to the description page on Nexus. I've also uploaded my debug ring there, because I'm tired of linking to 4shared almost every single time someone reports a bug...

If I've got everything right, I need to (including stuff mentioned further down this post):

1. Look dimming weather 0100080C before midday, first comparing it to the parent outside weather 01000859.
2. Add more info to the readme FAQs about specifically why Wrye Bash is needed.
3. Possibly add explanation regarding the possibility of integrating Immersive Interiors to the readme FAQs.
4. Investigate whether making appropriate interior weathers give sun damage with a reduced level compared to exterior weathers would be a good decision.
5. Investigate whether the game already factors in moon phase to night darkness, and if not, make it so (probably though a toggle setting for Night Luminance).

As ever, if there's something else you want done, remind/tell me. I would also appreciate people's opinions on point 4 (sun damage), as I haven't played a vampire in years.

I tried the "test fix" and still the same. One thing I noticed that Leyawiin church is brighter than Chorrol, for example. Here are three pics. Pic#1 is Leyawin at 11:30am(it's raining outside). Is too bright for my taste but since is 11am i think is somewhat acceptable. Pic#2 is the same church at about 12am. If we compare it to the 11:30am pic it obviously has been tone down in brightness. But still in my opinion is unrealistically bright for 12am. Now, pic#3 is Chorrol church at about 1am. The darkness is more realistic, not dark enough but acceptable.

http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/9458/screenshot9s.png
snip

That first pic does look a bit bright, I will try fixing that.

Hy,

I have one question on this section of the Readme :

Do I *really* need Wrye Bash?Yes you really need Wrye Bash.  There’s plenty of help out there about how to get Wrye Bash up and running. Wrye Bash also has many very essential functions for all Oblivion users. Get it now.How do I use Wrye Bash to import cells?To Import Cells from All Natural:1. Run Wrye Bash.2. Locate the Bashed patch.esp on the Mods tab (it should be at the bottom).3. Right click on it and select “Rebuild Patch”.4. Check the box that says Import Cells and left click on the words Import Cells.5. Check the box next to the All Natural plugins.

I don't doubt one second on the quality of the Wrye Bash tool but someone can develop a little this section ? I'm interrested about the "importing cells" considerations, and why Wrye Bash is imposed to players by the creators of All Naturals.
My main reasons is to tweak my Oblivion in respect of this mod, and to don't create conflicts or interactions, but i'm interrested by the strategical aspect of this point too.

Wrye Bash is necessary due to the integrated support for interior weather visuals and sound. Specifically the climate settings that make it possible. The import cells function allows the changes AN makes to interior climates to stick, regardless of how many conflicting mods may be loading after it in the game. Without Bash, most of the effect would be lose, and weather would cease to stay syncronized. There would also be no way to support extending this to mod-added cells easily without Bash's filtering functions.

Wrye Bash does not cause conflicts. It resolves them.

Since this question comes up regularly (especially on Nexus...), perhaps it's worth adding to the FAQs why exactly AN needs a Bashed Patch?

Also, I think the translation links and the II integration paragraph should be added to the OP. Perhaps the II integration paragraph should also be added to the readme as an FAQ?

[Lyndsey Bird]

4. Investigate whether making appropriate interior weathers give sun damage with a reduced level compared to exterior weathers would be a good decision.

I'm not sure this would be a good idea. Where would the character sleep during the day? Since you can't sleep while taking damage, I don't think this would work. Even if you had a protective coffin, I don't think you'd be able to use it since you're already taking damage...

[Natalie J Webster]

I'm not sure this would be a good idea. Where would the character sleep during the day? Since you can't sleep while taking damage, I don't think this would work. Even if you had a protective coffin, I don't think you'd be able to use it since you're already taking damage...

In a room with no windows. It does drastically cut down the available beds in the cities aside from the IC, but as I said I haven't experienced playing as a vampire, let alone with sleep-requiring mods, for a long time, so I've forgotten how troublesome this would be. You would also be able to wait in basemants, etc. and you could bring a portable bedroll (though I'm not suggesting that this be taken into account as part of decision making, since that's not a vanilla thing). I don't want to make AN unusable for vampire overhaul/survival mod users, hence the consultation.

[Chenae Butler]

In a room with no windows. It does drastically cut down the available beds in the cities aside from the IC, but as I said I haven't experienced playing as a vampire, let alone with sleep-requiring mods, for a long time, so I've forgotten how troublesome this would be. You would also be able to wait in basemants, etc. and you could bring a portable bedroll (though I'm not suggesting that this be taken into account as part of decision making, since that's not a vanilla thing). I don't want to make AN unusable for vampire overhaul/survival mod users, hence the consultation.

Ok, so if there are no windows, then there wouldn't be any damage. I think it's generally accepted that sunlight passing through windows would cause sun damage. In fact the tv show called The Vampire Diaries (my guilty pleasure right now, I admit it ), has sun damage from sunlit windows unless they have been specially treated. I doubt a computer game based in medieval times would have access to such treatments, unless you think there is some kind of magic effect that could be applied Of course a vampire could cover the windows though. Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines did that.

Now do you consider the IC shack to have windows? It kind of looks like it does from outside, but there aren't any on the inside. Also, what about Leyawiin? I think there is one small window, but that's on the other side of the house. There are no windows where the bed is and the bed is in a separate area, with a wall between that and the window.

So I'm not sure... I always play as a vampire, but I usually feed often enough that I don't have to worry about sun damage. However I would be annoyed if I couldn't sleep in my luxurious bed in Skingrad

[Kill Bill]

(Try this Again)

That would be fine if you could set it with SunRays, could even use that in the Caves with Rays shineing in :whistling:

[Daniel Holgate]

Ok, so if there are no windows, then there wouldn't be any damage. I think it's generally accepted that sunlight passing through windows would cause sun damage. In fact the tv show called The Vampire Diaries (my guilty pleasure right now, I admit it ), has sun damage from sunlit windows unless they have been specially treated. I doubt a computer game based in medieval times would have access to such treatments, unless you think there is some kind of magic effect that could be applied Of course a vampire could cover the windows though. Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines did that.

Now do you consider the IC shack to have windows? It kind of looks like it does from outside, but there aren't any on the inside. Also, what about Leyawiin? I think there is one small window, but that's on the other side of the house. There are no windows where the bed is and the bed is in a separate area, with a wall between that and the window.

So I'm not sure... I always play as a vampire, but I usually feed often enough that I don't have to worry about sun damage. However I would be annoyed if I couldn't sleep in my luxurious bed in Skingrad

By 'a room with no windows' I mean an interior cell which has a *NoWindows climate applied, ie. one which has no transparent windows as part of the interior mesh. The IC shack doesn't have any windows inside, so that counts, but if you have an interior cell with a window and a bed, but a wall between them, that doesn't count, as it still needs to show a weather outside that window, which would be one which sun damages - and this is the technical limitation that could cause gameplay issues if sun damage was added.

EDIT: On an unrelated note, I've mapped out the moon phase cycle:

Spoiler

Moons: M = Masser, S = Secunda
Shadowing: B = bottom, T = top, 0 = full moon, 1 = new moon. eg. B1/4 means bottom quarter of moons was in shadow.
S>M means Secunda appeared before Masser that day, more arrows means it appeared earlier.
S&M does not mean what you might think, just that they appeared at the same time.

GameDaysPassed		Moons Appeared		Shadowed0					S>>>>>M&S			01					S>M					02					S>>M				03					S>>>M				B1/44					S>>>>M				B1/45					S>>>>>M&S			B1/46					S>M					B1/27					S>>M				B1/28					S>>>M				B1/29					S>>>>M				B3/410					S>>>>>M&S			B3/411					S>M					B3/412					S>>M				113					S>>>M				114					S>>>>M				115					S>>>>>M&S			T3/416					S>M					T3/417					S>>M				T3/418					S>>>M				T1/219					S>>>>M				T1/220					S>>>>>M&S			T1/221					S>M					T1/422					S>>M				T1/423					S>>>M				T1/424					S>>>>M				025					S>>>>>M&S			026					S>M					0

The entries for days 0-4 were not observed, just extrapolated backwards, but they fit well. The data shows that the phase of the moons runs on a 24 day cycle, but the relative orbits of the moons have a cycle of 5 days. This makes things a bit complicated, as I will need to take both into account when modifying brightness to do things properly. Shouldn't be too tricky though.

[David Chambers]

By 'a room with no windows' I mean an interior cell which has a *NoWindows climate applied, ie. one which has no transparent windows as part of the interior mesh. The IC shack doesn't have any windows inside, so that counts, but if you have an interior cell with a window and a bed, but a wall between them, that doesn't count, as it still needs to show a weather outside that window, which would be one which sun damages - and this is the technical limitation that could cause gameplay issues if sun damage was added.

Yeah, that's what I was afraid of And the Leyawiin house has no basemant... Could you make this a configurable option in the ini? I imagine some players would like it, even with the limitations.

[Undisclosed Desires]

About the AN.ini fog settings:

Arthmoor, over in the RAEVWD thread you said you had both uGrids set to 18. Are you using any AN fog? If so what values have you set there, please?

Reading earlier in the thread I found that http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1140299-relz-weather-all-natural-thread-30/page__view__findpost__p__16678883, but these are for uGrids of 12 I understood.

I have set the uGrids to 15. So I increased those numbers a little +0.05 or +0.04 vs. Alt3rn1ty but I've no idea if it's any good (not played yet):

set ANVars.ClearFogDist to 0.67
set ANVars.CloudyFogDist to 0.64
set ANVars.FogFogDist to 0.55
set ANVars.OvercastFogDist to 0.63
set ANVars.RainFogDist to 0.62
set ANVars.SnowFogDist to 0.59
set ANVars.StormFogDist to 0.62
set ANVars.SpecialFogDist to 0.65

I assume 1.00 would be no AN fog at all?

I think it would be helpful if the readme contained a little guidance on those numbers. As is, it leaves the reader pretty clueless as to what he should reasonably insert there :unsure2: Or maybe I missed something? Then sorry for that comment. :angel:

[Destinyscharm]

Yeah, that's what I was afraid of And the Leyawiin house has no basemant... Could you make this a configurable option in the ini? I imagine some players would like it, even with the limitations.

That would be possible, if there's enough demand.

I also need opinions on what the maximum effect of the moon phases should be on the darkness. Taking the current defaults (or whatever you've set it at, doesn't matter) as the darkness/brightness when the moons are both visible and full, how much darker should it be if it's a new moon, and if it's a full moon but only one of the moons is visible, for weathers where you can see the moon (clear and cloudy)?

Only Clear and Cloudy weathers will be affected, since for all the others hide the moons anyway. Taking a night with two full moons as the baseline, I think new moons should halve the luminance, so keeping both moons visible:

Visible Fraction	Luminance Factor1					10.75				0.750.5					0.50.25				0.250					0

I think that since Masser is about 3 times larger than Secunda, it should supply 3/4 of the moonlight, so keeping both moons to be full:

Moons In Sky		Luminance FactorMasser & Secunda	1Masser				0.75

Since Masser is always in the sky at the same time, but Secunda moves, there won't ever be a night with Masser not being there, so the only variation is whether Secunda is there at the same time.

The two tables would be combined to give an overall multiplier of the luminance due to the moons, so Masser & Secunda both visible and full would have a multiplier of 1 (no change), and if they were new, then the multiplier would be 0.5, and if only Masser was visible with 3/4 in shadow, the multiplier would be 0.59375. The formula would be:

Overall Luminance Multiplier = (Moon Phase Luminance Multiplier * Moons In Sky Luminance Multiplier * 0.5 + 0.5) * INI Luminance Multiplier

What do people think?

EDIT: @ Tommy_H: If when you say "no AN fog at all", you mean "no changes made to the default fog distances of vanilla and AN-added weathers" rather than literally no fog at all, then yes, your assumption is correct.

[CYCO JO-NATE]

EDIT: @ Tommy_H: If when you say "no AN fog at all", you mean "no changes made to the default fog distances of vanilla and AN-added weathers" rather than literally no fog at all, then yes, your assumption is correct.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry my phrasing was sub-optimal.

Are the .ini numbers then "nothing" but linear percentage modifiers of the default game settings?

[Amy Cooper]

That would be possible, if there's enough demand.

I also need opinions on what the maximum effect of the moon phases should be on the darkness. Taking the current defaults (or whatever you've set it at, doesn't matter) as the darkness/brightness when the moons are both visible and full, how much darker should it be if it's a new moon, and if it's a full moon but only one of the moons is visible, for weathers where you can see the moon (clear and cloudy)?

Only Clear and Cloudy weathers will be affected, since for all the others hide the moons anyway. Taking a night with two full moons as the baseline, I think new moons should halve the luminance, so keeping both moons visible:

Visible Fraction	Luminance Multiplier1					10.75				0.8750.5					0.750.25				0.6250					0.5

I think that since Masser is about 3 times larger than Secunda, it should supply 3/4 of the moonlight, so keeping both moons to be full:

Moon Visible		Luminance MultiplierMasser & Secunda	1Masser				0.875Secunda				0.625None				0.5

The two tables would be combined to give an overall multiplier of the luminance due to the moons, so Masser & Secunda both visible and full would have a multiplier of 1 (no change), and if neither were visible, then the multiplier would be 0.5, and if Secunda was visible with 3/4 in shadow, the multiplier would be 0.5625.

What do people think?

EDIT: @ Tommy_H: If when you say "no AN fog at all", you mean "no changes made to the default fog distances of vanilla and AN-added weathers" rather than literally no fog at all, then yes, your assumption is correct.

Sounds good to me I've never messed around with the darkness settings, but this sounds really neat.

[Guinevere Wood]

Yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry my phrasing was sub-optimal.

Are the .ini numbers then "nothing" but linear percentage modifiers of the default game settings?

The multipliers are linear decimal multipliers of default values, yes. The toggles are toggles for whatever they govern. Each setting has a comment which should tell you what type of setting it is, and the top of the ini has a short explanation of the various setting types.

EDIT: Just came across a problem with the moon thing. It will need a script to be running and re-calculating the Night Luminance changes every day during the day. Not really an issue, I suppose, but it means things will need to be done differently. Additionally, if you're using Enhanced Seasons or something to alter your sunset/sunrise times, this means I'll have to detect them, and make the changes to the weathers during the time after sunrise ends but before sunset begins, which could be only 10 min, and if you wait/fast travel past that time, then no changes will be made, unless I also add the code to run in MenuMode too...

It gets pretty complicated, above what it is already...

[renee Duhamel]

Thank you Wrinklyninja, I figured it all out pretty well. It was just not clear to me how the numbers would work. Now I see. :thumbsup:

[Jeffrey Lawson]

EDIT: Nevermind, the CS told me.

EDIT 2: Oh, and forget about each moon being visible having a different weighting on the brightness, since I am changing the values during the day to prevent sudden jarring changes, I can't be that precise. During the night, there's only the option of Masser appearing on its own, or both Masser and Secunda at the same time. Masser appears at the same time every night, it's Secunda that changes, but I can't factor this in, so the calculation will just depend on if Masser is alone or not during the night, ie. Moons In Sky Luminance Multiplier will only have values of 1 or 0.75.

[Floor Punch]

EDIT: Nevermind, the CS told me.

EDIT 2: Oh, and forget about each moon being visible having a different weighting on the brightness, since I am changing the values during the day to prevent sudden jarring changes, I can't be that precise. During the night, there's only the option of Masser appearing on its own, or both Masser and Secunda at the same time. Masser appears at the same time every night, it's Secunda that changes, but I can't factor this in, so the calculation will just depend on if Masser is alone or not during the night, ie. Moons In Sky Luminance Multiplier will only have values of 1 or 0.75.

That's too bad, but not surprising... Beth probably just put them in to look cool and didn't have anything to support doing much with them...

[Phoenix Draven]

Well, I think I've got the moon stuff working quite nicely. I've had to make it affect not just clear and cloudy weathers, as it ended up making them darker than stormy weathers on occasion. I've got it so that you have to be using Night Luminance in Tamriel (ie. ANVars.Luminance != 1), and must set a new toggle enabled (ANVars.UseMoonPhaseModifier) before it will do anything.

I might tone the effect down a bit, since ATM it can up to half what your brightness is after your luminance setting is applied (eg. if you've got a luminance value of 0.3, it can go down to 0.15 some nights, and if your luminance is 0.9, it can go down to 0.45). What would you as players consider to be an acceptable variation in your nights' darknesses?

[Scotties Hottie]

Well, I think I've got the moon stuff working quite nicely. I've had to make it affect not just clear and cloudy weathers, as it ended up making them darker than stormy weathers on occasion. I've got it so that you have to be using Night Luminance in Tamriel (ie. ANVars.Luminance != 1), and must set a new toggle enabled (ANVars.UseMoonPhaseModifier) before it will do anything.

I might tone the effect down a bit, since ATM it can up to half what your brightness is after your luminance setting is applied (eg. if you've got a luminance value of 0.3, it can go down to 0.15 some nights, and if your luminance is 0.9, it can go down to 0.45). What would you as players consider to be an acceptable variation in your nights' darknesses?

Can you do it so that there is a minimum value after luminance is taken into account? Like maybe the absolute minimum is .25 or something? I think going from 1 to .5 or from .9 to .45 is reasonable, but I'm not sure I'd like it to drop to almost total blackness... Mind you, as I said, I don't really use the darkness settings. I do like the idea of it being a bit darker when there's no moon(s) though.

[Kieren Thomson]

It doesn't look like it's in the filter patch, so no, I don't think it does. You could get S&S, but then you'd also get both mods' sounds everywhere else.

Ok got that. I'm curious though, why wasn't Bank of Cyrodiil supported since this mod is one of the oldest and still used mods for Oblivion?

[~Amy~]

Ok got that. I'm curious though, why wasn't Bank of Cyrodiil supported since this mod is one of the oldest and still used mods for Oblivion?

Bank Of Cyrodiil is integrated into Better Cities so if you used that I would think it would work with AN.

[Blaine]

Bank Of Cyrodiil is integrated into Better Cities so if you used that I would think it would work with AN.

Interesting, I have BC. Let me check on it. Thanks.

[JLG]

@Wrinklyninja: I don't really play as a vampire so I have nothing to offer about the sunlight damage. However about the moon phase lighting, I really like that idea and concept. Instead of 50% of your current value how about a 33% reduction in luminance?

@lorca: You can add AN compatibility to Bank of Cyrodiil very easily in the Construction Set. Instructions are in the All Natural ReadMe on how to do this and it's really simple, only about 3-4 steps and your done.