The thing is, CHIM is something that is little felt by anyone who doesn't frequent these forums. I had never heard of it before my first visit to Lore, and since then, I've NEVER heard of it outside Lore, barring my own reading from the Imperial Library. All the metaphysics and philosophical garbage about the Tower and the Wheel, and the contradictory but mutually true interpretations is COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT of Bethesda's sales and marketing decisions to use it as a retcon device. The way MK conceived it, it's a fundamental part of the universe of Nirn. But to anyone not him or his disciples searching for their next loregasm, it's just a means to an end. And that end is to please consumers.

[EDIT] I am SO not surprised that the vote is 10 to 3 in no's favour. The reason? The only people that don't pretend that CHIM is an actual metaphysical concept DON'T COME to these wacky forums. OF COURSE it's a retcon device. Not just a retcon device, but a retcon device nonetheless.

Only time its been a retcon device is with the jungles.

I'd say Dragon Breaks were retcon devices before CHIM.

Did Dragon Breaks precede Daggerfall? The first time I encountered the idea was when it was used, in Morrowind, to explain how the devs managed to avoid choosing one of Daggerfall's possible endings, going instead with all of them. That's not the solution I would have chosen (and I used to rail against it bitterly), but I can live with it. You can't really call it a "retroactive continuity" when there was no conflict in continuity to begin with. Retcons are generally invoked when it is discovered that part two conflicts with part one in some unexpected (or sloppy) way, and something is introduced in part three that ties the two together. The Daggerfall problem was different.

Now, Chim WAS used for a retcon, to explain the extraordinary discrepancy between previous text descriptions of Cyrodil and the Imperial City, and the actual game implementation. Once again, not the solution I would have chosen (I'm sure some here are aware of my http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=485545&hl=\climate+change\), but it is, as they say, fait accompli. At any rate, this particular usage of Chim does seem somewhat like what LC describes the Lazarus Pits being used for in the DC universe (I'm more a Marvel man, myself, so I don't personally know), so I voted "yes".

Just clarifying that I don't believe it was originally designed to be a retcon device.

I just see it as MK using lore in a logical, sensible way to cover the devs' blunder with the jungles.

You're partly right. Mostly, however, you're just a bit silly.

Also, not looking hard enough.

Whether or not the concept of CHIM has changed is irrelevant to the original question, and the fact that it's not CHIM's main reason for existence is sortof implied by calling it "cheapened", so no points there either. As you said, CHIM can be used for this, and conceding to the point that it was at some point is really the only deciding factor (the concept can stay the same either way). (Also, Tropes replied by saying you were off-topic, just not in those words.)

Almost your entire first post was off-topic, if you want it broken down:
-"CHIM doesn't change. It is what it is. The only things that change are the people who think they know what it is and make the wrong conclusions."
--Nobody ever stated that CHIM (the concept) changes or asked whether it does. The question was in reference to what the concept was used for. It can be used for different things without the concept changing.
-"The secrets to CHIM don't lie in comparing it to Lazarus Pits, Nirvana or anything else. CHIM is well explained in the framework of the lore but it takes some thought and open mind to learn it - or asking the right questions."
--Nobody ever asked where the secrets of CHIM lie, or even stated they were looking for the secrets of CHIM. Furthermore, nobody asked about how to learn about CHIM or whether it's explained within the framework of the lore.
-"Reading the original post: No, I disagree.
--This part is actually on topic, but that's its purpose, so it has to be. This basically states that nothing before it was necessarily in reply to the original post, which I guess would mean you were intentionally off-topic prior to this point...

And I'm off-topic too. So to reply to the actual topic I'll borrow your technique.
Regarding the original post: No, I disagree. (the reasons are pretty much the same as what's already been posted, so I won't reiterate them)

Also, I'd like to clrify that CHIM's retconal (Ooo, mommy look! I coined an adjective!) use was actually not the product of Bethesda's ZOMG EVIL ANARCHO-CAPITALIST MARKETING TEAM directly but, rather, a throwaway comment in one of MK's own works in response to the EVIL ANARCHO-CAPITALISTIC MARKETING TEAM's conversion of Cyrodiil from lush jungle to Maryland. Which, yes, is an entirely different flame war to be had, but I digress.

Just, you know, in case any of our invisible lurker friends were confused.

Cyrodiil doesn't look all that much like Maryland, FYI. And the roots of the idea, from what I was told, go back to a programming glitch in Daggerfall.

http://www.mobot.org/MOBOT/Research/unseengarden/page34tl.jpg

http://images.morris.com/images/cjonline/mdControlled/cms/2008/06/01/285036221.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1175/1431001874_42797add8c.jpg?v=0

I don't post very often in the Lore forums because I am still trying understand this stuff (BTW I'm taking a world religions class now and the Buddhism section has helped immensely), but I wanted to comment and ask a question.

Question: Retconn means...what exactly?

If you are referring to this curious habit of TES to either 1. change lore or 2. be intenentionally unclear about events in past games I think both are easily explained. Second one first...whether we are talking about the Dragon-Break-Daggerfall ending or the Oblivion references to MW I think the Devs are allowing space for those who played previous games to find their own "story" within the current game. Say you took the Underking ending in Daggerfall...well what fun would it be if, on reaching MW, you found out that wasn't the "canon" version of the game. Beth, I think, came up with a rather ingenious answer to this with the Dragon Break which says, if I'm understanding it correctly, that -all- of the possible endings occurred. Right cute, that. We see similar things in books in Oblivion that deal with the fate of the Thieves' Guild. This is done so that you, the player, can feel connection between the different games, and feel that your choices in that game are respected by the TES world: Beth is not going to say "No the Nerevarine made -this- choice!" The door is left open for the choices of every player.

As to Lore changes...far more interesting to me than the changing of Cyrodil from jungle to forest is the change of Imperial culture from Roman (MW) to something very akin to English (OB; there are also some references to French knighthood and wine culture happening too). One could explain this as the Devs wanting to distance themselves from the Roman thing and go for something more medieval...but I'm not so sure. It may be that as the series goes along Beth feels some things that had been set in stone can be improved and things like Dragon Breaks and CHIM allow that. Or...it could be that Beth is playing a perception game on us.

Here's what I mean: the worldview of your character (not you, the character themselves) may color the way they perceive reality. We have come to believe that, when playing the game, we are seeing with -our- eyes. We are not. We are seeing with our -character's- eyes. It is entirely possible that the character we are controlling is in fact interpreting events and what we receive on the screen is colored by their biases. For example...in MW there are a ton of Dunmer faces in character creation to use but only three Argonian. Could it be that your character (who by default is Dunmer) thinks all Argonians look alike? Interestingly, OB gives the player the chance to craft their own face, perhaps reflecting the more "cosmopolitan" aspect of Imperial culture (NOTE: I realize the facial issue is largely technological and/or prefab faces are easier, but what if it isn't?). This opens up a great variety of possibilities for interpreting what "actually" happened in any of the games.

How would this apply to the changing of Lore? The description of the Imperial City in The Real Barenziah does not go with our vision of it in OB. We must remember though, that Barenziah grew up in a Skyrim castle and spent most of her "rebellion" period wandering the wastes of Skyrim trying to reach MW. From her perspective, the IC would be exactly as its described in her book (okay another guy wrote the book, but we're seeing through -her- eyes). Or from another perspective, what would a fisherman from Gnaar Mok think if s/he went to the IC? Perhaps it is not that -lore- was changed, but the perspective changed. (This method of seeing the game through your characters eyes etc, btw, is a Biblical interpretive method called Ideological or more commonly, Reader Response, for those of you who are interested).

If, however, this is not what is meant by "retconning" then I have rambled on about nothing. All apologies. :facepalm:

Technically speaking this isn't a retcon anyway, the term is being used out of context

A retcon is a "retroactive contraction", it was a term coined in comic book circles to describe when an author decided to remove or change some already defined and used aspect of a character or situation and retroactively change the timeline to suit their needs; a good example is where a character has been killed but they later change their mind and bring him back and also retroactively change the timeline to suit that (ie. he was "not quite dead", "body was never found" etc). The Dragon Breaks, the Warp in the West and all that actually have a canonical explanation, albeit one that stresses suspension of belief to the extreme.

But that's just pedantics really retcon or deus ex machina they act as a tool for the authors to change history without disrupting the flow. Of course, the nature of the namesake Elder Scrolls should be an excellent indicator that the TES setting is one in constant flux and thus shouldn't suprise anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retcon is what happens when you change the "canon" for some reason. "Yeah, in issue #467, there was a story explaining that Capeman's superpowers were granted to him by a telepathic alien god; but really we felt that aliens just didn't fit in Capeman's universe so here's the real origin story about how he got his powers from being bitten by a mutant walrus." This kind of things.

Yeah, really. I'm not saying CHIM isn't a fun or interesting concept, I'm saying that in the commentaries and Many-headed talos it was used as a means of retconning as opposed to it's original usage.


Yes and yes. Well, sorta. There are two and only two, both are mysterious powers not known of or understood by the vast majority of the populace, and both are/were used as a means of retconning (at least in my personal opinion).


I wasn't offended at all. And yes, I thought Nalion hit it on the head (Sorry for the pun), It is capapble of being used as a cheap method of retconning, but the original idea had not changed and in his opinion it is not being used as such.

PS: Ryuujin, It seems to me to be a pretty accurate use of the term then, Cyrodiil was changed from jungle to forest and the retroactive change was back in tyhe day Tiber Septim used CHIM to change it for the sake of his beloved soldiers. A good character piece and effort, but meh. And you are right, the magickal, unstable nature of TES' niverse means that this shouldn't be very jarring.

But all the same, I appreciate the thought guys. Now, there are tons of threads for discussing the nature of CHIM, let's bring it to those. This thread is for discussing whether or not it's being used as a retconning tool like the Dragon Break is supposed to be.

It can be where ever, but Fallout 3's Tranquility Lane used the same SpeedTree to make it look exactly like if Cyrodiil was a black and white retro-futuristic 1950s suburbia. The dialogue is exactly the same...Apple Pie and Mudcrabs! And finally, both are simulations, Tranquility Lane at least admitting it is.