Okay, here's what I mean.

I noticed a similariity between CHIM of TES and the Lazarus Pits of Batman. Not in function, obviously, but in useage and development.

To start, Lazarus Pits were the bizzare source of power for Ra's Al Ghul's immortality. They allowed him to be a deeper character and were just plain cool.

CHIM is, when grossly oversimplified, realizing you are the pointless dream of a gigantic schitzo-god and still maintaining your own personal being.

Eventually, Lazarus Pits became the means of Comic Book Death in Batman, bringing back characters when they need to retcon out a death.

CHIM, at least for Oblivion, was the clumsily weilded way of retconing out Cyrodiil's jungles in the much appreciated but not quite effective http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/many-headed_talos.shtml

Does anyone else see a similarity? It seems that both really awesome concepts tended to be cheapened over even short amounts of time in order to retcon out inconvenient little bits (or large bits, like dead characters and landscapes)?

Disclaimer: I am belittling neither Lazarus pits nor CHIM, just attempting to see if anyone else wound up getting the same idea.

I would say Dragon Breaks are in reality the equivalent, as the concept of a Dragon break was created in Morrowind to allow them to retcon out parts of Daggerfall they didn't like.

It's just a lore disguise for Bethesda retconning things. If you look deeper you could probably find some other implication, but it's just coincidental that it always happened to "really awesome concepts". That's how the game industry works.

CHIM doesn't change. It is what it is. The only things that change are the people who think they know what it is and make the wrong conclusions.

The secrets to CHIM don't lie in comparing it to Lazarus Pits, Nirvana or anything else. CHIM is well explained in the framework of the lore but it takes some thought and open mind to learn it - or asking the right questions.

Reading the original post: No, I disagree.

Like I said, this isn't about how they function within thier established objects. I know that CHIM isn't Nirvana isn't Lazarus Pits. I'm saying thier function in terms of retcons seems simmilar.

BTW, yeah, Dragon Breaks do seem more like that, but they were created specifically for retconning. Lazarus Pits weren't, and neither was CHIM.

Translation of Mankar Camoran: "Sorry guys, but we have to do it for the legions."

You know what else never changes? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkBNKa2KXZE -- by which I mean to say http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showforum=33, which I hate to say you're replicating right now.

See? I can make Zen-like non sequiturs for the sake of obfuscation, too.

Nastiness aside -- why is it that we can't have a single discussion about CHIM without the Thought Police coming along and saying "it's an unknowable concept, read the lore and meditate upon it in order to find what you seek!" It's really kind of silly; can't we just have someone make a sticky or something with links to all previous CHIM threads and make posting a CHIM thread a thread-deleting offense? Because, frankly, the never-ending cycle of redundant conversations sickens me.

No offense, Tropes; just a nasty-gram that had to be written, and I chose your thread.



I'm actually gonna have to agree with Mortazo on this one -- LN's anology probably holds stronger with Dragon Breaks than with CHIM, although the "Red King Once Jungled" silliness from the Commentaries means that CHIM isn't entirely inapplicable. Which is a silly trend, in my view, because it takes what could be rather pretentious and intriguing postmodernist thematic elements from TES metaphysics and turns them into...well...magic retcons.

(Although, to be fair, I'm aware of the fact that Dragon Breaks were invented solely for the purpose of retcon -- the above paragraph refers more to CHIM as used in the Commentaries, compared to how it was used in Morrowind-era sources).

If you mean with "Thought Police" the stick that pokes people before they get too comfortable in their own reasoning, then yes: I'm always at your service. In earlier days, those who did that were a little more numerous, so we could share the sticks. Nowadays, it is not so.

Oh... I've never said anything remotely similar as "CHIM is an unknowable concept". I would rather say that most people don't know CHIM. I've been trying to put up some questions regarding CHIM, which I think might lead to some understanding. That's my way of a sticky. It's a rare, but very enjoyable sight when someone "gets it". That's my motivation. Nothing more, but nothing less either.

AP's unfortunate method of quoting confused me too... wasn't he responding to Tropes alone?

CHIM was jsut MK's attempt at injecting Advaita Vedanta into lore. And let's remember that it was he himself that wrote the "Red King Once Jungled", so in that respect it was its own creator that was defiling it, so its potential seemed limited from the get-go

But on a more general note, whether it be Dragon Breaks or CHIM this trigger-happy approach to retconning in TES is really quite anoying. Morrowind and Oblivion were both major annoyances it terms of how much plot was shifted around. If Bethesda just settled on things from the start, there would be no need for this stuff.

New rule : all CHIM threads must be responded to with a zen koan.

I'm still here!

Sadly, I'm not here quite as REGULARLY, and every time the subject comes up, you tend to get to it with a more eloquent and thorough phrasing of anything I would have said long before I get there.

Though while I'm here, I may as well back up your initial reply. The OP doesn't "get it."

I like the Dragon Break comparison more, but I see where you're coming from. Fantasy apologetics :rolleyes:

Daggerfall svcked, get with the program.

Now that I have your attention. Perhaps you'll consider the reallity of making a game. It's something that is done with a group of people and as it goes with a group of people there are people involved with different ideas, tastes and visions of how things should be done. Overtime the people and their jobs change, hence their influence varies and with that so does the end product. That the artistic ideas vary between games.

The jungles are an example of this, and a poor one at as it is just the backdrop of the world. Nobody would have cared all that much if they actually fleshed out the setting beyond the quasi-Romans who worship a polytheistic catholic church that we had in Morrowind. As such variation in the artistic concepts is something any reasonable person should be able to accept, a lack of quality isn't. But that is not the topic of this discussion.

Mankars throwaway line about those who can re-shape the land is the apology for it in game.

The Dragon Break is as much a retcon as the endings of Daggerfall have continuity. They didn't. A Dragon Break is the result of gods walking the earth, a theme that actually features quite often in lore. That it also fuses endings of Daggerfall can be called Serependity. Though you can also reason backwards, and say the endings actually were what inspired the metaphysics, the spirit of the Dwemer, the concept of the Player as a god, the world and everything.

In other words, these are not the horrible retcons you're looking for. Han shot first.



If by similarity you mean, used to explain a change in the world? Yes, but that's about where it ends.

No.



OK, I'll give you the fact that, in retrospect, my "Thought Police" outburst was ill thought-out and a rather bad anology. But my original point still stands, so allow me to clarify it:

What I was getting at is that, oftentimes in these CHIM threads, you and a couple other forumers tend to try to shove this silly opinion down everyone's throats that CHIM is:

a.) The central, ultimate secret to be discovered by prospective "loremasters" in regards to TES lore, which it really isn't.

or, as I like to see it:

b.) The exclusive knowledge of the Shadowy Forum Clique^TM, which you can't be a part of until you go off to "search the lore" and meditate to find the answer you seek. But here, in place of a real answer, take a Zen-wannabe koan instead!

I still can't really fathom why this comes up every time a CHIM thread shows up, as the answer to what CHIM is should be easily understandable to anyone who just http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml, where MK very clearly and eloquently defines what it is and what it means within the grander scheme of TES metaphysics. It's not a secret -- it's not something that MK made up to be obscurantist.

So this is where I have my problem with you. Here, LN was trying to discuss CHIM's use as a retcon and, presumably, whether or not it was justified -- instead of contributing something useful to the conversation, you go off into a soliloquy about how Tropes doesn't "get" what CHIM is and should go and do more research about what it is before starting a topic on it. Now, ignoring the fact that what CHIM actually is metaphysically has little to do with the topic at hand, since Tropes was referring to a throwaway comment by Mankar Cameron about Tiber Septim in the Commentaries, let's look at precisely what you said:



Wow! How enlightening! So, dear sensei, since you know so much about CHIM, I'm sure you'd be glad to enlighten us all with your definition for it! Or perhaps link to Vehk's Teachings so that all us ignorant folks could learn about CHIM's relationship with the Psijiic Endeavor or Lorkhan's actions in the Dawn Era, right? Hell, even though your condescension is off-topic, perhaps you could find some way of tying it back to the conversation by showing how Mankar Cameron used it to refer to Tiber Septim and the Enantiomorph, right? After all, none of this would be beyond the amazing abilities of the sensei and his magical koans, right?

Nope.



Oh! I see. Wow, what a profound and thought-provoking statement; not only have you waited this long to even bother reading what the topic is about, but now you simply rebuke it in a three-word answer. After all, we don't know the glorious "secrets of CHIM," so we therefore can't have a constructive conversation about how it was used in the Commentaries or how it's connected to Tiber Septim or whether or not using it as a retcon is a cop-out. Thank you for showering us in your knowledge, as always, sensei.

Search function. Use it. And don't be an ass. All of those questions have been answered by Nalion and many others in countless other threads. It's not our job to do your homework for you thread after thread after thread.

And incidentally, CHIM is only a cop-out if you're a really crappy storyteller. And the reason you perceive a Shadowy Forum Clique^TM is because there really is an element to understanding CHIM that cannot be spoonfed to every potential apprentice of The Big Stuff who comes knocking at the forum door. Part of understanding CHIM is understanding it not only as the Tower, but as the Wheel, and that it means something when you turn all the little wheels within the Wheel. The reason it's difficult for people to really "get" is because you have to learn to think as God with many minds at once. It doesn't make much sense until you figure it out from both directions and join them simultaneously in your mind, despite the fact that they are often contradictory understandings.

He wasn't asking for you to "do his homework" for him. He knows perfectly well what CHIM is. He was merely suggesting that Nalion should maybe answer the question at hand instead of obliquely implying he's better than the rest of us, because he has access to some mystical source of knowledge that the rest of us don't.

Wow! Thanks, mysterious stranger, for condensing my mad ramblings into a convenient, legible three lines of wisdom. Your answer statement makes several times more sense than mine.

I salute thee.

EDIT: And, by the way, this is really off-topic, and I apologize for derailing Tropes's thread.

Always happy to help.

There's one thing I will have to mention (and have mentioned multiple times) before I start. You won't get a straight answer of what CHIM is from me. Period. Because I believe that CHIM needs to be experienced and not be told by others. If you can't understand that, fine. If you perceive that as elitism, fine. I comment on CHIM threads to offer an alternative to being told - and I daresay being wrongly told in most cases - what CHIM is.

My alternative is asking questions and hoping someone's going to take the offer and try for an answer. I'll gladly help, but I will never tell what CHIM is.

I've been asking the same question for at least the last four CHIM threads. Here it is again (copy and paste):

Take the Sermons and read them.
While reading, try to answer the following question: To whom do you think are these texts adressed?

When you find an answer to above question, ask yourself why Vivec specifically chose that adress. Also, keep in mind that they are titled "Lessons", so they are meant to teach something, besides being poetry.
Another little hint that I hope might make things easier: when you come across seemingly overly complicated passages. A lot of Vehk's Sermons are metaphors for things that are undescribable for most readers. Imagine someone never having seen or heard of snow before and you have to describe it to him. You can't just say its snow, because he wouldn't understand it. Maybe you would say something along the lines of "it's like white, cold down falling from the clouds".
Vehk's doing exactly that. Describing the "indescribable" in words that can be understood.

Hint for answering question number 1:
"The ruling king is to stand against me and then before me. He is to learn from my punishment. I will mark him to know. He is to come as male or female. I am the form he must acquire."

Additionally, here another thought:
"The ruling king is armored head to toe in brilliant flame. He is redeemed by each act he undertakes. His death is only a diagram back to the waking world."
Applying the "Vehk's trying to tell you something that seems impossible in possible words"-idea, given this sentence, what might be the true meaning (also take int consideration to who Vehk might be talking).

So, here are my questions (again). That is a first part. That is what I have to offer as first steps. Take it or leave it, it is your choice. But if you don't take it, don't complain the next time about me not being helpful (enough).

And that's cool because nobody asked anyone what CHIM was here. Tropes didn't ask what CHIM was, he asked whether we agreed that it was used in the same way as that Lazarus Pit thing from Batman.

And that's completely different.

Actually, I'd perceive it as a bit cultish, rather than as elitist. It's a game. Yeah, it's great to have metaphysics in a game, it's a level of depth most settings don't offer, but at the end of the day, treating it as a religious experience? A bit overblown.

My first post was an answer to the question whether CHIM is (comparable to) the Lazarus Pits now - or, as can be deduced from the original post, was turned into a "cheap" tool of retconning events. CHIM can be used for this, but it's not the main reason for its existence.
I mentioned that the (concept) of CHIM has not changed (as a reply to the original question). Also, the "No, I disagree" serves as an indicator to the vote I gave in the poll.
I think that qualifies for the post being "on topic". (Edit: I didn't start explaining CHIM until Putty came in)

I'm curious, though. You guys seem to jump in for Tropes but in his reply post, he didn't seem offended by my post - in comparison to the tone of the posts of others.

Well, with all due respect, Nalion, that's because he ignored you.

Comes with the territory of being off-topic, you know.

Are you entirely sure that it's not, though?

;)

I'd have to say it's more like he's letting those who could potential learn by themselves do just that. It's an invigorating experience figuring out a piece of a puzzle by yourself. It's straight up fun. At the very least, Nalion is trying not to spoil the fun.

And no, I disagree that CHIM is becoming a retcon tool. If anything, it leaves a lot more questions when used in such a way (with some answers that most players wont dig up on their own) than any problem it fixes.

Besides, it doesn't matter that they used CHIM to retcon Cyrodiil's jungles if the world hadn't been so dull and boring, even without leaving a city to notice it was a forest and not a jungle.