Well, the BOS certainly makes it seem that way. There is a incredible lack of immersion for joining them. You get nearly broken PA, damn it. Then perhaps a little line from the new elder (assuming you replace the old one). Then, the knights/scribes still refer to you as "outsider". You also get no more BOS quests besides Veronica's. There is very limited options for representing you are a member of the BOS besides very few dialogue occurrences.
Was Beth so concerned about overly included the BOS due to Fallout 3-related complaints that they did not include them enough? They are the only non NCR/Legion faction you truly join.

You don't get much when you join the BoS (after they send you to The Glow) in Fallout. You have to fix the PA yourself and talk them into fighting the Master. They aren't even joinable in Fallout 2. There is one quest to give them the blueprints for the vertibird but thats apart of the Shi related quest.

The BoS in Fallout New Vegas do have some quest. Fix their air system, their computer system, find the scouts and then the lost patrols, find the missing laser pistol. There is the option to replace the leader. You can blow them up or make peace with NCR. There are far more options in Fallout New Vegas than Fallout and Fallout 2 combined.

They also give you the damaged T-45d PA because the devs assumed you would take the better T-51b PA off the dead brotherhood, you are asked to go find. You can also go and buy stuff from the Brotherhood armoury.

The complaint with Fallout 3 is that we are forced to join the Brotherhood. And the funny thing about that is there aren't that many bos related quests in Fallout 3. You just run up to them after the Enclave take Project P and they let you join. That's pretty much it. Than the BoS fix Optimus Prime that does all their fighting.

The air purifier and the Elder-given quests where mostly on path to join. My point is that if you choose to join the brotherhood, the logo on your shoulder is the only immersion besides small dialogue options.

And actually what's funnier is that you aren't even made an official member of the BOS until Broken Steel came out. Despite doing just about everything for them.

Then of course, you are made a freakin' Knight when they do let you in. Talk about under-appreciation.


Welcome to the "factions who you support but are extremely difficult to roleplay an active member of without mods" club.

At least in New Vegas you have the option to side with the BOS to a degree. Try being an Enclave supporter in Fallout 3. Then come talk to me.

Thank God for mods is all I can say.

It makes sense that they would give you slightly damaged PA because frankly all of the good ones are being used by their Paladins. Did you really expect them to give some random person who helped them out a bit a fully repaired suit of PA that they had to take off of one of their veterans?

If I remember correctly, the given t-45b power armor was pretty close to broken.

But my point is there is already alot of interaction with them. You don't do anything to join the BoS in Fallout 3 and as Lt. Andronicus pointed out you don't even become a member till Broken Steel. The BoS in New Vegas make you do far more than what the Brotherhood in Fallout ask you to do. Granted the Glow is a hard quest to do, but there is another way. The Brotherhood weren't meant to play a big role in New Vegas. They were playing the part they play in Fallout and Fallout 2. They were in the background. If anything we had to much interaction with them. They were still tied into the final quest line. Where as we had to go deal with them in one way or another.


So what? Didn't you pick up the six suits of T-51b power armour off the six dead brotherhood during the quest to go find the three missing patrols?

The way I see it, having the chance to replace the leader is a big thing. Having a chance to try to change the way the BoS do things through Veronica's quest is also a big thing even if it was fruitless. Getting the chance to destroy them or make peace is a big thing. Way more than we got in Fallout 3.

Well dude, this random person managed to do things paladins failed to do, as stated by the guy you give the air purification gizmo too, so yeah i'd expect to receive a FULLY repaired suit, I mean you get instantly made a paladin, why not get armor like one, especially if you manged what you did before even becoming one?

Again I am I the only one that noticed the six suits of T-51b power armour that you can loot of the six dead brotherhood members you are asked to find? Really am I the only one? Lucky they don't ask for them back.

Being in a lockdown they have to be running low on PA suits and it would make much more sense if they kept them for their own veterans that have been members of the Brotherhood for their entire lives. It would also make sense to keep the fully repaired suits on veterans who are using them to directly defend the bunker. The Elder must have also noticed that the Courier has been doing pretty well for him/herself without PA.
No, your not the only one and it was only three for me.

Your complaining that the BoS let you join but still treat you as an outsider? Considering you shouldn't really be able to join them anyway - it kinda clashes with Veronica's questline too - since they are isolationists and only new members are the ones breed into it.
As for being called the "outsider", well you are. How many people do you know have joined up with something, that has never welcomed your type before, and have been nothing up loving towards them? Quick example: Black and White people - when the slaves were freed, how many of them recieved welcoming hands into the community? Same stands with the BoS.

The clash with Veronica's story annoys me - They won't change thier ways at all or listen to her pleads, but HEY! I just joined no less than ten minutes ago, have they forgotten that already?

Also don't forget they give you the key to their safehouse. So they pretty much give you your own base.

Dude you're not the only one, but the point of the matter is, you couldn't just loot n carry them pointlessly, as that would be fruitless considering you don't have the training to wear it, so for instance from a role playing perspective, those 'six pa suits on the dead troops' are useless, as is the point in doing anything for the brotherhood, like the OP is trying to make point of, because you just get slung aside and forgotten about by them.

Exactly, they are in lockdown, and YOU are the only member beside Veronica, permitted to LEAVE, so WHY NOT give you a FULLY repaired suit of PA? They don't defend the base at all, they have the door on lock, and you get no answer from the intercom without the password, so if anyone such as the NCR stumbled into there, they can just go mute, or open the door and F him up, considering they have superior training, inside their own confines they don't really need the armor y'know.

It's a huge sign of faith that they give the Courier any PA at all since they must be running low. The PA is one of the few things separating them from being just another gang, they aren't going to give it up lightly.

First off, you find those suits. You can't use them, but hey its POWER ARMOUR. So from Fallout 3 you know that the BoS will be the most likely guys to teach you how to use PA. So what I do when I come across those suits. I take them to my safe house and stash it for when I can use it. If nothing else they are worth caps.

Also the Brotherhood teach you how to use PA. The Brotherhood give you a KEY to their safehouse. They sent you on a quest to find six suits of T-51b power armour.. So people are complaining because all you get is a busted up suit of T-45d?

There are way more quests to help the BoS than there is in Fallout 3. They give you a base, they give you training. You can replace their leader, you can blow them up or make peace with them. You can buy stuff from them. You can even try to change their ways. That is a lot of interaction with them.

Fallout 3, you don't even become a bos till the DLC. You don't do anything to become one, they just let you help them when it comes time to attack the Enclave. You get one BoS companion that is useless. The most they do for you is train you.. That's about it. How many quests do they ask you to do? I can't think of any. There is that one to save the guy but that isn't much of a quest, that is more like tagging along.

Some people haven't played FO3 js they don't all know, also you don't do anything? You get the Geck, they obviously hear of your endeavor somewhere down the line, to know that you're valuable asset to them, just like Enclave consider you that par colonel Autumn, then You have the purification code for the project, so they need you, more than you need them, just as the Enclave do.
So you kinda do earn your place in the BOS imho, but hey each to their own, and like I said from a role player perspective you'd not take the random armor you can't use, just like he says there is no immersion with the BOS in this game, I mean why must you compare it to FO3, this is a discussion, not a comparison to 'win' an argument after all.

Plus you only become part of Lyons Pride in the DLC, you are BOS in the final stretch of the game with Liberty Prime.

You are right there are some people that did not play Fallout 3. Still the BoS have PA, you can't wear PA without training.. is it that hard to think "maybe they will teach me?"

Also I know full well that there is interaction with the BoS in Fallout 3. What I am saying is.. There are no quests that the Brotherhood ask you to do. They don't ask you to find the GECK. They are pretty much using you. They don't ask you to help fix Optimus Prime. They don't ask you to help with the Outcast. They don't ask you to do anything for them at all.

Yet Fallout New Vegas is full of quests that they ask you to do. They even give you your own base and you can buy stuff from them. They have a shooting range you can use.

I compare it with Fallout 3 because to me it seemed like the OP was saying Fallout 3 has more interaction. I could be wrong. I also have compared it to Fallout and Fallout 2 in other posts, so I am not just picking on Fallout 3. Fallout 3 is easier to compare to because more people would get the idea, since there are still alot of people out there that have't played Fallout and Fallout 2.

Interaction is not the case here, he's just asking why the terrible immersion with the BOS after you become one, why don't they get the fact you are a paladin, not an 'outsider' < oh wait should be 'paladin' cause you're not at the end of the day, but in FO3 at least they refer to you as somebody y'know...

Because they don't let in outsiders. The very fact they are dealing with you at all is radical. So I can still see others not really wanting anything to do with you. They call you outsider because you are an outsider. Every one in Hidden Valley was born and raised as a memeber of the Brotherhood. You came from outside, therefore you are an outsider.

Beside the fact that within a week of you knowing them you become a Paladin, and outrank at least 70% of the people in there, they should respect you and refer to you as Sir.

Even still you are an outsider. Do you really believe they would just act as if you were born and raised in the Brotherhood?

Paladin isn't the highest rank. Yeah it is a high rank but not the highest. And doing Veronica's quest, you can see they never fully trusted you.

They weren't born in there, they vacated it, and it's like 4th highest.... Higher than 70%

I completely agree with Styles, it all really comes down to the fact that you are an outsider. They asked you to help them, you decided to say okay, they rewarded you with one of their slightly damaged suits of PA and you left to do other things.

Plus all of the members in the Hidden Valley bunker were born into the Brotherhood which is what he was getting at. Besides, Paladin is not a rank its a caste within the Brotherhood. "The scribes develop technology, the knights build it and the paladins use it." - Fallout Bible 8

The Lobotomite is right. I was saying they are born and raised into the Brotherhood. Their parents were brotherhood and their parents parents were brotherhood and so on. I know they weren't born in Hidden Valley. They were born else where, but they were born into an organisation that rarely if ever lets outsiders join. So anyone new that does join will stick out like a sour thumb and be viewed as an outsider.

They would not just over look the fact that you are not truely one of them. Again doing Vectorias quest you can see that they never really do accept you. There are those that would welcome change like Veronica but most don't.

Many of those that wanted change were sent away from the Brotherhood long ago (before Fallout 2).

Lyons Brotherhood is accepting of outsiders. That's why they treat the Lone Wanderer as one of their own.