Are you sure? Make sure you aren't using any texture replacers for http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n268/PeterEater76/ShiveringIslesDusk2.jpg?t=1192813350&imgrefurl=http:/s114.photobucket.com/albums/n268/PeterEater76/?action=view¤t=ShiveringIslesDusk2.jpg.

But why should we immediately assume that whatever we read is true? I feel it's more appropriate to remain skeptical of it until it's proven that it isn't false. And if the assertions were made such that it can't be done, it's the fault of those who made the assertions. I've certainly seen nothing suggesting the things that I'm skeptical of are true, and plenty of information suggesting that they aren't true. Why is it implausible that mortals don't know everything? They certainly don't know everything about their own little world.


I'm not throwing out all of the lore. I'm only interpreting in a different manner a small fraction of the lore we have. True, there's a fair amount of fan interpolation from it, that, by extension, I'm throwing out, but that's not true lore. And the "bizarre implications" aren't what makes TES interesting to me and many others. It's the gameplay that I find so interesting about TES.

Edit: By the way, it's nothing personal regarding the fan interpolation thing. I know that some of you people have put a lot of effort into TIL scholarly texts based on what is found in the lore.


But how do you tell the difference between a sun and a large bright ball?

We shouldn't. But we also shouldn't immediately assume it's false because "oh, it sounds stupid". And we especially shouldn't say that and then say that something that conflicts completely with the assumed-to-be-incorrect theory is true even though the proposed alternate theory is also just an assumption.


Interpreting it in a way such that the lore we have is incorrect; same difference. If you like TES for the gameplay, that's fine and dandy, though you should realize you're posting in the forum regarding TES lore which is where the bizarreness lurks.

One of the reasons I disbelieve it is because I feel observations and other lore renders it suspect at best, for which I try to find theories that these observations don't contradict.


I treat the lore for what it is, be it in-universe observation, casual dialogue, or written texts. Perhaps they give information on how something works, but they are what they are, be it a book, a conversation, or an observation. To me, lore is more than how stuff works, it's how it's perceived by mortals to work as much as how it actually works.

Thinking is good. But your alternate theories are always trying to substitute everything that looks "weird" with ideas taken from real world physics, which hardly involves much along the lines of a creative process.

http://www.imperial-library.info/node/2234

The cosmology in TES is (jntentionally) designed to be as vague and contradictory as possible, There are multiple accounts and descriptions of each entity and event per culture. The only canon answer involving the physics and history of the universe is what you get from the gods themselves, who really have no interest in satisfying your curiosity. I have yet to see any ingame evidence that Padomay, Anu, or Sithis ever existed. The Nine, or at least Akatosh and Talos, certainly exist, but even then, we have a dozen versions of them. In the end, our only real contact with the mythos proper are the Daedra Princes, who appear to just love assigning random tasks to mortals simply to see what happens.

Coterminous can mean the dimensions are the same, or one borders the other. Both definitions work, because the world is the form of both a wheel and rod.

The multiverse is present, it's an old hat. (One of the most common archetypes is the cosmic egg. Within the one egg are layers of other worlds and universes more vast than mere mortals can decipher. So it becomes the journey of some to know these worlds.)

The Aurbis an egg-layered world (that is, a multi-layered universe). Perception, and not mere sight, but understanding, becomes man's only limit to attaining the enlightenment* of gods. Lorkhan embodies the same mental stress. His failure becomes the call for man to subdue all the limits of mortal existence. Therefore, mortal mental stress is a temporary debilitation. Removing Cosmology's "mortal mental stress" removes the impetus for transcendence. All of a sudden, Nirn becomes the inescapable prison of the Elder viewpoint, which I thought you said was arrogant.

*Enlightenment is Divinity is Cosmos. Every man has the capacity for enlightenment. In fact, only mortals have that capacity. Divinity is Universalism. It is the right of transit through the foreign worlds of foreign minds. Auriel arrives by spaceship; and the gods manifest in all (known) mythology.

A big part of the cosmology text is to explain how the quirky things we seen in TES really work. Have you noticed that stars can be seen through the moons when they are not full? How can you possibly explain that through conventional cosmology? Nothing in TES really meshes with our real world, unless you are willing to dismiss magic and myth as real forces (which I'm going to guess you're more than ready to do).

All men are innocent until proven guilty. All sources are true until proven false. Or, you know, they are just really dumb.

More like I'm not substituting everything with crackpot theories from secret societies in the game.


Good point, Daedric-perspective lore is one of my favorite varieties.

For managing to use my favorite out-of-game text against me, you deserve a http://www.uesp.net/w/images/images.new/c/c4/Fishystick.jpg!


That's where we are at an impasse. "All sources are true until proven false" doesn't sit with me. I'm not going to call falsehood on everything, but that doesn't mean that just because it's the only text on that aspect of the lore doesn't mean that it should be given special treatment. And even then, I've given things that suggest it's suspect.

Last, in the Empire, they go by "guilty until proven innocent"

Edit: And to whom it may concern, I do not go out of my way to challenge everything established. If I wanted to do so, it'd be pretty clear. And even then I don't disagree with everything, just small, vague aspects. And while I may sometimes challenge fan interpolation I do so because I genuinely feel it is faulty. This, for example, all started with a few innocent observations I made. I understand my view on the lore is somewhat controversial among the lore community but I try to avoid challenging people unless they challenge my ideas first.

Thing is, it's just about the only thing that currently exists that attempts to explain that part of lore. It's all we have to go on. Of course, like with all the conflicting creation myths each race has and how you must view the true story because of that, it would seem wise to take the cosmology text in the same manner. Useful information, but probably less so when only taken at face value. But the lack of other accounts in this case makes that a bit trickier than figuring out creation.

Oh, and also how the unlit sections of the moons are very noticeably darker than the "atmosphere"'s (atmosphere anolog's, whatever). I do remember seeing the same effect with Earth's moon as well, but to a far lesser extent, but maybe that's because I'm just getting tricked by my narrow retinas and all the palinopsia and whatnot I get with that.


Also, going back to your bit where you stated that what goes on in Nirn is only a small fraction of the entire picture... again, I'd be very hesitant to say that. First, we've only really seen Tamrielic lore, aside from a couple things such as the Tsaesci (I may have spelled that wrong, I'm tired) creation myth. Well, that and we've only really seen at all is Tamriel. Nirn encompasses areas outside of Tamriel, of course; of these, we know of Pyandonea and Akavir, and possibly Atmora and Aldmeris, though their existence is suspect, at least the latter's is (I can't remember for sure if there was anything calling Atmora's existence into question, but it seems like Man's counterpart to Aldmeris/Old Ehlnofey, so maybe?). Point being, there is for sure a lot of important stuff going on in Tamriel alone, regardless of how proportional these events are to things occurring elsewhere. And there's other lands on Nirn that I'd suspect also have a lot of things going on. Taking Nirn as a whole, I'd say it's pretty significant, don't you think? Though I'll admit there's also evidence that would make it less so. We have this, from that text I linked to:
This states that there's all kinds of other beings mortals on Tamriel have yet to encounter. These beings are also labeled as "servants", so it follows they serve something, and to serve means action, which means more events. Events happening in places that we haven't discovered, or just lots more events we're unaware of happening in places that we know about. That could marginalize Nirn's significance a bit, unless a lot of these things are happening on Nirn but outside of Tamriel for one reason or another, but could also marginalize the significance of the Outer Realms we know of. Oh yes, I just remembered,
Nineteen voids. The mortals inhabiting Tamriel were only aware of sixteen, weren't they?
Though the inhabitants of Tamriel would tell you that the Daedra are an untrustworthy source of information. Maybe, maybe not, maybe only occasionally; difficult to say for certain. Either way, it's apparent to me that the writers of the lore are trying to paint themselves in a position such that they're not constrained to just what we've seen or heard of thus far in the series, in fact, expanding their potential horizons a great deal. Still, it isn't fair to say that the happenings on Nirn are comparable to a speck when you're only considering Tamriel.

Tales of Symphonia is what you're likely thinking of. In TES, humans can use magic, their cultures just don't tend to have as high an emphasis on sorcery as elven ones.

As for all this "innocent until proven guilty" stuff, if you're going to contest the commonly held viewpoint, may as well provide something else that is interesting instead of "people are ignorant and therefore all this wierd stuff is likely moot."

Also, it's likely that magic use in Tamriel was accidental to some gods but not to others. Magnus, for example, likely didn't realize that leaving would still allow magic use, just diluted as compared to what would have happened if he (magic) was part of the world itself. Shor likely knew that it would occur.

EDIT PS: Obviously, there is more to the universe of TES than what we've seen. But what are we supposed to do, twiddle our thumbs? I say that, as each game gives us a new angle of the situation, our perspective will shift accordingly to a fuller picture. Until such time as the tapestry is complete, though, we may as well try to construct a cohesive whole from what we have.

It seems that some of the arguments postulated here may have a lot of Lore backing them up - but where is it written that everything said and done in-game etc has to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

Or is it possible that the devs creating much of the lore did so with a vey clear idea that many of the statements made by those characters who wrote the books or said things were known to those devs to be untrue - whether because mistaken; or outright fabrications based on cultural bias or personal gain; stupidity on the part of the in-game characters/authors or even made untrue by events not mentioned then or subsequently or have been made to be untrue by events that are still yet to come?

Another thought is has anyone wondered if the devs actually lie to each other when role-playing as an in-character necessity? and do they always remember to update everyone if that occurs?

To me this is part of the mystery - that although it is possible to take things a very long way and creat fascinating stuff out of them ... things might not always be as they seem

ps - I suspect that Crimson Paladin is actually a dwemer or half-dwemer ... and is therefore actually deserving that respect due to all rare creatures = worthy of further study

Duh, be inductive and cross-reference? If you don't, it isn't the developer's fault you svck. Crimson Paladin is not an author of lore, therefore he should back what he thinks with sources, if he wants it to qualify as a theory. (Unless he wants to be a monkeytruther, in which case, he's got to be more insane.) He can't. His source is an unrelated interview, between thing 1 and thing 2, suggesting what we already knew: the Daedra have their own view. Game mechanics cannot make a weighty claim.

No one said everything everything said and done in-game etc has to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, by the way. I mean, let's take a breather and remember Tamriel is a pure fiction. The zeal for absolute truth should be confined within the lore we've been made privy to.

MK said that there is, in fact, ingame/in-character literature deliberately written to give a false and conflicting view of things explored by other literature. He also mentioned one example of this (which was written by Kurt Khulmann who was described as being the man who he'd prod to write the "conflicting" lore or something or other) but I don't remember what it was, might've been one of the books about the identity of the Underking. Though since I remember fairly well he said it was a deliberate fabrication of conflicting falsehood, that'd imply what it conflicts with is true, rather than both being wrong. I'd try and find the post but I can almost guarantee you it's been pruned out of existence for a while now.
But for most/all of the literature to be wrong would be stupidity on the lorewriters' part. That would make it nothing but fluff, and it definitely looks like too much effort was poured into it for it all to be merely that.

Back on topic: considering that Mindas was designed by the Et'ada of magic, it is supposed to have it.

Magick comes from light and so even if there wasn't any sun, you'd still have all the magick from the stars. I wonder, would you be vaporized if you went through one of the holes in Aetherius onto the other side? Or would nothing happen? Or would you be soaked in raw magical essence?

heyy that's interesting Arklon could be interpreted like it is being said that NPCs do not lie to each other nor abour each other ... which is what I was getting at

If we are looking at it from a 'religious/ancient event pov then given that there is an obvious discrepancy between the mer view of events and the human view that would suggest that both are true ... so are humans and mer living in parallel continuums or is the whole ES universe a maze of parallel continuums. If that were so and what we are getting are snippets from a multiverse of some kind then it could be that the op is both correct and incorrect ...

Iconoklast - not sure what you are getting at there but my view is that Crimson tends to rely on his interpretation of reading and game experience from which he forms his ideas - this is not to say that I go along with all of them, just that since I generally recognise what he is saying his contributions have to have a lot of basis in in-game fact. now if you don't agree with his conclusions that's fine by me - but what I was getting at is that the dwemmer ways were rejected by whole races and certain if not all of the daedraq princes etc and that didny detract from their contribution.

Also, I don't feel that everyone has to have the same kind of genius - that would indeed narrow things down too much. Maybe Crimson is not a dwemmer but a kind of daedra or an imperial shopkeeper? the game then is to find an alignment for him that aligns his contributions with a view to deciding what kind of in-game position he is coming from. Even if he is mistaken on certain points he may well accurately reflect the misunderstandings of an in-game character It takes all sorts to make a society - and npcs have to have varying intelligence or all would be boring - as a character we all start with an int level that is close to moronic do we not? So with lore - not all good lore is likely to come from those that hold opinions that agree with ours = long live diversity

It would be interesting to receive Crimson's opinion on the contention that he is not crazy enough though ^^