I wouldn't mind seeing things like multiple bosses, dungeons that have no "boss", empty dungeons, etc

Larger dungeons should 100% have a quick way out at the end, but some of the smaller dungeons really don't need it. There could also be dungeons that you could have to fight your way out of, etc.

I completely understand the design mentality behind the way they set up dungeons, and I can also see why it doesn't bother people.

The biggest reason why it bothers me is because I like getting immersed in the fantasy world as much as possible. Having every dungeon set up the way they are makes them as a whole unbelievable even in a world with spells and dragons.

They are.

Things have been vastly improved...if you dont think so then you should change your definition of "vastly" or "improved" because yours currently svcks.

Going in a roughly straight line and dungeons looking alike are two very different things. And I would agree that the corridors in them are extremely narrow; which is a big problem with companions and conjures following along; or worse, in front of you, but that doesn't make them identical either. I've gotten quite turned around and lost amongst the combination of tunnels and rooms in them.

They do tend to lead you in and out. And there are similarities, say, in the dungeons that have the same baddies in them, however, they are not copied and pasted like they were in Oblivion, and if you think they are less unique than Oblivion, you must not have played Oblivion in a very, very long time because to find a unique Ayleid, ruin, or Fort, was a rare, rare occurrence (like one or two? out of all of them). The dungeons here obviously share building pieces (staircases, doorways, cages, etc) but I have cleared more than 25 of them and have yet to enterone and experience deja vu at the overall experience in any of them.

@ECZ3n354 - Have you played the game yet or gone through the dungeons? I did one yesterday with two bosses, they often have no boss and you sometimes fight right up until you exit out of the dungeon and I've been in an empty one and I've only cleared 25 or so dungeons from all over the map. Edit: I just saw your other post. Forts aren't like that. They tend to be more circular in nature and you have a couple of exits/entrances and you can enter/exit at the top or the bottom.

I understand what you're saying OP. Although dungeons look visually different, there's very little that is fundamentally different from one dungeon to the other.

Basically this summarizes most of my dungeon-delving experiences in Skyrim: go in, follow linear path to the end - in the process, kill everyone and maybe solve some variation of the trivial snake-eagle-whale puzzle, kill boss guy at the end if there is one and loot his corpse, find word wall if there is one, find main chest, unlock it, see that it only contains a leveled sword, 9 gold and a potion of minor healing, roll eyes, follow quick-exit hidden path back the entrance (or to the other side of the mountain).

Although they're much better than Oblivion's dungeons, they're still nothing to write home about.

After going through many of the caves. mines, and crypts in Skyrim, the very idea of stepping into a ruin or cave in Oblivion makes me nauseous.

So, yeah I would say they have definitely been improved a bit.

When you break it down like that every game is exactly the same. FPS are run here shoot this guy blow this up, repeat. Racing games are start race get ahead of everyone win race. RTS are build big army send big army out win with big army.

You can simplify it to the tenth degree but all your doing is being difficult on purpose.

While I understand your point, Skyrim's dungeons and caves have many different designs and variations. I disagree with the multiple paths argument as well, since most of what you got in Oblvion were to parts that ended in minor loot finds, but the terrain still didn't change, while having to backtrack incessantly. I found that backtracking tedious after about a half-dozen cave/castle/dungeon encounters. There are dungeons and caves in Skyrim that have branching corridors, that lead to loot, and not only that, they lead to items necessary to finish the cave/dungeon quest. One facet I absolutely love in Skyrim that irked me to no end in Oblivion, is that many of the caves/dungeons have an exit near the end. Or, it lead to a path that allows to leave the area from its original entrance, through a hidden or unlock-able door/moveable rock that couldn't activated from the beginning when you first entered it. In oblivion, I found myself all too may times having to backtrack the length of some really long caves to leave. Ayleid ruin were sometimes really nasty in this aspect. But I admit, I miss those ruins and the facsimiles (the Dwemer ruins) are far a few between when compared. Now, one thing I think Oblivion had that was far superior in caves, dungeons, castle and ruins, was that creepy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffj--qr9YpY, that never got old.

I've played for ~60+ hours. I have cleared countless dungeons and that has been my general experience. I still have never found a (non-quest) dungeon that did not have a boss with his boss chest, a dungeon with multiple bosses, nor an empty dungeon that I didn't clean out myself. Forts are slightly better off, but they usually break down to the same pattern as well. Although, they do tend to have more offshoots into various rooms or areas, which I like.

I would have thought that after clearing half of the map I had gotten a pretty decent sample size.

I love dungeon raiding in Skyrim and they all seem different to me and full of atmosphere.

Except that it doesn't *have* to be that way. They don't need to follow a linear path to a boss that has a generic large treasure chest where he conveniently stores his items with an exit right behind him. The dungeons could be radically different, but they aren't. Making the comparison of skyrim to FPS, racing games, or RTS doesn't really make any sense because in all of those games there are clear and precise goals for what the player needs to do. FPS games the goal is to complete your task, whether that be to kill and enemy or blow something up. Racing games the goal is to win. RTS the goal is conquer. What is the player's goal in skyrim? If your goal is to fight bosses and loot their treasure without alot of hassles, than you probably enjoy the current set up a whole lot. If you like exploring and immersing yourself in a fantasy world, than you are probably like me, and feel that setting up dungeons in this fashion detracts from the experience.

Theyre improved from oblivion and are pretty good but still have some major flaws. Linearity is a big one that bothered me too. Theyre also too light, theres too much fighting (something around every corner, gets boring), the puzzles are too easy and some items are recycled a lot which gets boring.

Sure, the majority of the dungeons seems to be sort of linear (but definitely doesn't feel that way when you go through them, at least not for me), but from having cleared only a fraction of them myself so far pretty much all the various versions mentioned in this thread so far seems to be represented. The fact that not every dungeon is a maze-like 2-hour crawl makes those that are so much more enjoyable ^^

The thing that annoys me most is supposedly long abandoned or sealed dungeons have so many lit torches and braziers. Are the draugr scared of the dark? XD

The torches bother me less than all the fresh produce in various barrels. Torches I can understand a s a game play convenience even if I wish it were't there, heads of lettuce and red apples all over the place I have no excuse for.

Sorry, but no.
One of the few redeeming qualities of Oblivion's dungeons was precisely that they were NOT linear. They had lots of intersecting passages, rooms with several entrances and multiple levels that you could often enter or exit by more than one entrance.
That's a FAAAR cry from "being just as linear" as the unique corridor without the tiniest hint at a different way that I've seen so far from every single Skyrim's dungeons.
I'll have a look at Markath's ones quickly, as they seem to be the only glimmer of hope here !


These two messages describe exactly what have been my feeling as well, except that for me, the ultra-linear pathway make them look actually NOT like a real place.
Which is a shame, because yes, there have been a LOT of improvement in the visuals, but it's just being canceled by the predictability and boringness of following the supremely railroaded path :-/

I was expecting something else than "a dungeon = a corridor", which I explained in the OP and is actually the POINT of the thread, making me wonder if you even bothered to read past the title.

Hand crafted as they copy and pasted most of the rooms yes. Some of them are unique and quite frankly amazing, but when they said they were going to be unique, they're not really.

I found a grotto yesterday! :drool:

"Interesting" and "Oblivion's dungeons". Talk abut an oxymoron.

I think every dungeon in Skyrim is better than every dungeon/cave in Oblivion.

They could just have had a little overhaul on the mob side, draugrs with diff armors and helmets are still draugrs even if they shout.
Dungeons themselves are beautiful, i love the Celtic / Nordic design, reminds me Tolkien and Arnor / Northern Kingdoms barrows and the Tossens here.
Kudos to those who designed them, it is actually a brillant step ahead.

They are better than Oblivion's.
After about 50+ hours gameplay you could pretty much predict where to go if you got lost as there seemed to be a pattern of about 7 types of corner in the game

That's really one of the thing that I don't get.
HOW are they well designed ? Just how is a corridor a good design ?
I recognize, and agree, that they look good, but I really don't see the point nor the interest of ultra-simplistic "one pathway", and I can't see what "design" there is in it, not to speak of "good design", like if it required a lot of creativity to make a tunnel...

And... the one single pattern of Skyrim ("just go forward") is better ?
That's the other thing I don't get : Oblivion got whipped for its repetitive dungeons (and, granted, they were), but Skyrim is at the same time praised while going for an even more repetitive design...

I. Don't. Get. It.

Indeed, most 'o them being a single room shouldn't spoil the fun now would it? :rolleyes:

It is mainly for the crowd because without doing a poll i am sure 90+ of the players do not like heavy dungeon crawling a la Underdark.
Having sold games for years i can assure you that if a puzzle takes longer than few mins to solve or if getting lost in a maze the average player will just drop the game or start to curse it (main reason why the Soulreaver/legacy of Kain serie was dumbed down, up to the last which is a joke).

But also the good ol' time of Ultima underworld, Dungeon Master, Black Crypt, etc is gone.
The dungeon itself was the core of those games while in Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowind the focus is set on giving flesh to the whole world with its towns, wilderness, etc etc which is time and resource consuming.
It is the very reason why the surface of TES games has shrinked over time (Daggerfall was 116 000 km2 iirc while Oblivion was 300ish).
You just can't do everything, it is not possible, you have to balance things and choose what will appeal the crowd.

So, yes, for the hack'n'slash dungeon crawling part of a modern open world RPG it is well designed, specially compared to Oblivion's crap dungeons or more recently DA2 that was all along hack'n'slash in the same tunnels.