Hi I wanted to know to the lorenerds out there what happened to URSS and what about NATO is tere any alliance between europe and US?

It seems that the US was more isolationistic and NATO probably didn't exist in the 21st century.

As for the USSR, see:

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Soviet_Union

The North Atlantic Treaty was signed in 1949, and I believe (although I may be wrong) it was created as a result of wanting to prevent another World War. The Fallout world did diverge from ours around this time, but it seems to me something directly related to the Second World War would still go ahead.

Of course, the lack of NATO could be the very reason FOR the divergence.

There was probably still NATO and then later then Warsaw Pact. The big difference would come around when Gorbachev held office, as Glasnost and Perestroika would have worked exactly how he would have wanted them to. The Soviet Union, would have both modernized its economy and liberalized its society. As for what happened to the Warsaw Pact/Eastern Europe....well that's anyone's guess at the moment.

There likely was a NATO in the 20th century in the Fallout world, but it probably didn't exist anymore by the time the Resource Wars began, just like the UN.

I think NATO existed, but not like in our world. NATO become the EU's militarty alliance instead, since that would be much safer if anybody decided to have a war over their heads.

There probably wasnt a NATO because america became a isolated nation, so europe facing threats of invasion by the USSR was forced to either become a superstate, or simply allie this became the european commonwealth. The only thing we do know for sure was that the USSR didnt collapse, and america didnt help the european commonwealth so there probably wasnt a alliance.

I always wondered why people in America (especially DC) didn't just make some boats and cross the sea to Europe. I imagine that it wasn't turned into a nuclear hell-hole as well. And if it was, it's a Eurpean hell-hole which is always better than the crappy hell-holes you find in the states.

The USSR, 3 possible paths:

1) The USSR is reformed under Gorbachev, and eventually becomes a federal state, with each of the SSR's becoming states of the new Union of Soviet Federated Socialist Republics. The Red Army, is slowly decresed into a defensive stance, along with pulling out from East Germany and the Warsaw Pact, and instead leaving the nations of the Eastern Bloc to persue their own national interests. With detente settling in, and the end of the Cold War clearly visible, the Soviet Union, moves on into the 21st Century as a nation in transition, with democracy and capitalism being the rule of the day.

2) The USSR under Yegor Ligachev, takes a Brezhnev style approach to problems facing the Soviet Union. The CPSU, continues to be the only, and dominant party in the country. Rumblings in the Warsaw Pact are quickly put down, as Red Army troops race in to assist East Germany etc. Under Ligachev, the Red Army expands, and engages in further aggression against the West and NATO. The Soviet Union, continues to remain and dominant, but also isolated world power, under which fear and oppression are the rule of the day.

3) A Yeltsin style reformer, comes to power. He believes that each of the SSR's much dictate their own national destiny. He lets go of the Warsaw Pact, viewing it as archaic and wasteful. Eventually most of the former SSR's eventually split away from the USSR, leaving only the Russian SFSR and the Byelorussian SSR. The USSR, in the 21st Century is a nation in turmoil, but slowly heading towards a liberal/capitalistic democracy.

I know we're merely speculating, but I think these two are the more likely of the 3, and I base that on one tiny little thing... THere was a member of the Soviet Consulate in Vault 13. Both of these situations would in my mind thaw relations enough such that such a thing could be concieved.

It was turned into a nuclear hell-hole as well. The whole world was.

Fallout intro:



Fallout 2 intro:



Jesse Heinig, one of the FO1 designers:



The very first Fallout 1 timeline by Scott Campbell and Brian Freyermuth (from which all other Fallout timelines in existence are derived):



Emil Pagliarulo, FO3 lead designer:



Tim Cain, one of the main creators of Fallout:

There is simply no mention whatsoever of NATO and the Warsaw Pact. This is logical, since the Divergence occurred right after WW2. And very little even about the USSR. Russia is basically a non-entity in the Fallout Universe. From the fact there was a Soviet consul in Vault 13, it would seem that the USSR stayed neutral through all of the conflicts. That would make sense, as Russia has plenty of oil (a fact not mentioned at all by the devs of any Fallout game), and would not need to participate in the Resource Wars. When the nukes started flying in the Great War they probably launched all of theirs as well, although at who is also completely unknown..

Maybe they were invaded by the Chinese as well for that oil, and thus allied themselves with the US against China out of necessity.

Yes, this very well could be. The Chinese and Russians have never really been best buddies anyway. China still demands the return of Mongolia (and which the Russians refuse to do). The Chinese in Fallout may have conquered and overrun all but the European part of Russia. This will probably forever remain speculation, since so little is mentioned in Fallout canon..

If the USSR survived into 2077, and so did China, then, supposing Russia was still a Communist state, however was not allied with China and instead allied with us, doesn;t that add a bit of a problem to all the anti-communism? Or is the USSR a kinda subject like, well, China is today. They call themselves Communists yet repress their own people for the sake of US corporations. Or, if they are seriously Communist, then, I guess Communism works in the Fallout universe. Personally, I'm just going to assume the USSR just calls itself Communist, rather than actually is.

Yup, I'd assume that USSR in Fallout's 21st century was much like today's China. Still an oppressive state, but communist only in name.

The USSR of the Fallout World, would resemble the idealistic Soviet Union of Gorbachev(Perestroika and Glasnost actually work). Though the nation would still be the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, it would have taken on a more federalized and democratic stance.

I think oppressive state with "market communism" like modern China, while China, on the other hand, is hardcoe Maoist, is more likely.

So are we assuming that someone like Yegor Ligachev or one of the hardliners came to power, or that Gorby was ousted by coservatives in the party. Now if that were the case though, it would not explain a good relationship with the US?

No one says the relations were very good. My guess is that they were simply allied against common enemy - China.

Well, the exact date of the divergence is not mentioned but the common belief is that it happened between 1947 and 1955 (fallout Wiki)
The UN (est. 1948) was present in the FO universe, so it is probable that NATO (est. 1949) was there as well.

However, if there was a Nato it would probably have been assimilated into the European Commonwealth.

Still, if there wasn't a NATO it wouldn't matter since the timeline is not well documented until after 2050 (the start of the tensions between countries)
It is very likely that until the resource wars and the dissolution of the UN in 2052 that diplomatic relations between countries were good, or cold at best.

The Isolastionist attitude of the US government started slightly around that time as well, considering the diplomatic relations before the divergence it is very likely that the US had the same good relations with Europe.

The lack of information of Soviet power, diplomatic stances or whatever makes it subject of lots of speculation. Also considering the fact that Soviet Communism is different from the one that Mao Zedong started in the Peoples Republic Of China (in 1949->prob. before Divergence) makes it unlikely, but not impossible that the two countries have been allies.

Also, reading the canonical timeline, it states that both china and Russia (soviet Union) doubt the fact that the US had put the first man in space. From this it is possible to conclude that the Soviet Union was a technologically advanced nation.

Regarding the resources, most of the Soviet fossil fuels are located in Siberia under the permafrost. Mining these resources is very cost expensive in relation to the ones in Alaska.

Therefor I think that China chose to invade the United States for the following reasons:

1. The American Economy was in a Downfall.
2. Alaska wasn't well re?nforced with troops, and the remote location made getting reinforcements there a hard job (they annexed Canada for a reason.)
3. Although Soviet Russia was easier to reach, acquiring the resources would make a tougher job.
4. It was very possible to think that due to all the domestic problems the US would give up the war pretty quickly due to the remote location of alaska and the costs of fighting.
5. Russia provided an excellent border against whatever force the European Commonwealth was able to put up after the resource wars. The had to cross (neutral) Soviet Russia to get to china first. Providing that Europe was able to muster an army after the resource wars anyway.

Although I don't believe that The Soviet Union was best friends with either China or the US, it is very likely that they wanted to sit this one out, maybe being able to grab some land and resources from the losing nation if the occasion was provided. Also the cost of waging war in terms of money and fuels might have proven too much to make an effective force, since they still had the Siberian oilfields.

What would be cool but very unlikely is that China kept the US busy and the Soviet Union invaded what was left of western Europe. However I can imagine whatever gain the russian were getting out of that. Europe was devestated by the resource wars.

I strongly disagree. The American Economy was the only economy with new oil coming in. Most of the industrialised nations were brought to a standstill as they rushed to bring other energy sources online, and look for material replacements. Comparitively, the American Economy was probably the strongest in the world at that point (but weak compared to its history).

Australia, Japan, New Zealand, Korea, IndoChina, etc. would have made better targets based on that criteria. With little to no oil, they would have had huge problems defending themselves, and bigger domestic issues as internal trade came to an almost halt.

In the real world, Ivan and the Chinese had some DIVISION sized engagements back in the late 60's IIRC. Think of it this way, the Catholics and Protestants in Ireland hate each other, but worship the same God. That's what is going on with the Russians and Chinese. They, in effect, worship at the altar of Marx, but they each think they are the one true way. I would assume that this carried over to the Fallout world, and the Chinese sent a few love letters to Moscow and points north.

Interesting arguement you have here. It's a very good one, but I'm going to try to counter it.

Altough the American Economy was the strongest in the world, it was weak. Also they had a lot of domestic problems, famine, the virus as is clearly stated in the timeline. Although they had oil coming in, most of it was used for manufacturing and government. (I apologize for the lack of a source here, read it on the wiki, sure of that, but can't remember where exactly) So they (China) had a risk to take back the alaskan resources by wasting a lot of resources they already had. It was a gamble, but the dice rolled wrong for China.

Australia, Japan, New Zealand, Korea and IndoChina don't have much oil resources, they do have some coal and other raw ores but not in the amount as Alaska did. Unfortunately we do not known how or why it was the US, and probably never will. There is just not enough background information about it.

Perhaps Bethesda can fill in those gaps with a pre-war game, or a game about the resource wars. More than enough possibilities.

I agree with that 100%. It's quite conceivable that in the Fallout universe, Gorbachev's programs of Glasnost ("openess" - meaning the loosening of the Communist Party's tight grip on all political and social power) and Perestroika ("restructuring" - meaning the reduction of the command economy and the introduction of small elements of the free market and private enterprise). Glasnost would have lead to more democratization in politics and increased individual liberties, and Perestroika would have created the beginnings of capitalism in the economy.



Well, if Gorbachev's Glasnost and Perestroika are successful in the Fallout universe, then I think that you're prediction is spot on; by the 21st century, the USSR would be very similar to the China of today in our real world. Interestingly, the real-world China also had a modernizing leader of its own, Deng Xiaoping, who governed China from 1978 to 1992. Unlike Gorbachev in the USSR, he was able to transition his country's economy from pure communism to a form of "socialist market economy" with great success. It's mostly because of his policies that China has enjoyed such tremendous growth rates for the last 20 years or so. As a side note, some historians speculate that because Deng Xiaoping focused reform exclusively on economic matters without any increase in democracy or individual liberties, he was able to maintain total control over the political and social developments in China; this was best exemplified by his violent and brutal crackdown on the Tiananmen Square protests in 1989. Gorbachev, on the other hand, opened the flood gates when he allowed more democracy and individual liberties through his policy of Glasnost; once the Russians tasted a bit of freedom, they soon turned against the Communist Party and the USSR crumbled in a few years.

Now, if Gorbachev was successful in the USSR in the Fallout universe, then maybe Deng Xiaoping was not successful in China. If so, then perhaps China remained a staunch, hardline Maoist/communist state. That would explain why China, rather than the USSR (where communism first got its start), was seen as the primary "communist enemy" by the USA leading up to the Great War.