I think that's a misunderstanding. Most people claiming the superiority of Morrowind, and want Skyrim to be more like it talk about its depth. Some prefer Morrowind's mood and look too and want sequels to be more alike, but that's just them and not the majority. Most of us just want more options, more depth, less level scaling, a real travel system, everything that made Morrowind be so much deeper and enabled far more roleplaying choices than Oblivion did with it's 4 all-encompassing factions and few miscellaneous quests among other elements I alluded to.

I played Morrowind on the PC, but I played Oblivion (and Fallout 3 and New Vegas) on consoles. I don't consider myself 'casual', but you wanted console gamers to vote, so I did.

No fast travel, except in the form of things found in Morrowind. An exciting, unique locale. Scaling isn't neccesary: New Vegas didn't have it, and that worked perfectly. A house is always nice, but the buildable strongholds from Morrowind are also welcome to make a return.

Whats with all these people saying you need to spend a thousand dollars to get a decent rig to play Oblivion? I played it just fine on my $600 LAPTOP and had no issues at all, so all these complaints about needing thousands of dollars to play it on PC are just rubbish.

I really dislike the way that console/casual/mainstream players are described as evil. I consider myself on the more casual side of the forums. Most of my friends are mainstream players, and quite a few people on the forums who are hardcoe gamers are also console gamers. If you look at this thread, about 30% of the people on the forums play on a console http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1148310-what-system-will-you-be-purchasing-tesv-for/page__st__200 And since when is being a casual gamer and not total nerds like we are a bad thing?

Odd how "casual", "console", and "mainstream" are all lumped into the same category. As a proponent of "consoles", I gave my reply.

1. I want the maximum of joinable factions reasonably possible. I want them to interact in dynamic, irreversible ways.

2. I want Morrowind level scaling. Or, to be more precise, Fallout: New Vegas level scaling. I want certain areas closed off until I gain specific powers/resources. It maintains an air of mystery to the world.

3. I want Oblivion's system of item scaling in place, as it was more than fair. One shouldn't be able to set off from the first town and procure a Daedric weapon, ala Morrowind.

4. I expect Skyrim's story to be coherent and well-polished. If this means relying more on standard fantasy archetypes than of exotic esoterica and mysticism, then so be it.

5. In summary to the final question, I want every convenient amenity of Oblivion on an optional scale (how does one make fast travel mandatory, exactly?). Fast travel, quest markers, the works. I'll use them when I want to. If you don't like it, don't use it. That logic seems pretty flawless, to me.

...

Is one to assume games like Shadow Hearts and the Shin Megami Tensei series are casual and mainstream simply because they're console titles?

Not Oblivion, Skyrim. A good gaming PC costs that much.

I'm a PC gamer stuck in the body of a Console gamer, HELP!!

With the title of this topic, I'm surprised that the Moderators haven't shut it down or made him change it <_< .

What on earth are you talking about? Just because a person enjoys one game moreso than another, or finds one game too boring to play doesn't make them either casual or hardcoe.

Sitting down and agonizing yourself by playing a game you don't enjoy just to grind and learn the game mechanics does not make you a "hardcoe" gamer.

I have almost twenty games on Steam, and eight games outside of Steam installed. And I'm not even counting all my old games that I've stored away. I play alot of games, and I'm definitely not casual. Just because I didn't enjoy Morrowind.

Did not vote because I'm no evil console/casual/mainstream gamer... but it was really tempting to vote. :laugh:

Sorry, I should have said, Casual RPG gamer.

Morrowind is strictly for hardcoe RPG gamers who understand dice rolls and expect the chance to hit functionality of old timer RPGs, Oblivion is a lot more Action-RPG, suitable for more casual style of playing RPG games and relies more on the skill of players who have come from FPS genres.

In Morrowind your character's skills determine your action's outcome = Pure RPG
In Oblivion your own skill with the help of your character's skill determine it = Action RPG

That's what I meant.

In Morrowind, you still had to aim in real time and move around to use various attacks. Just because Oblivion introduced manual blocking doesn't mean it's become of a different genre than Morrowind.

I just want out point out that in a role-play game hate to say this but sometimes options and unique characters, and QUANTITY do outweigh Quality. Really... Its not that amazing...

Then Morrowind is a dumbed-down piece of [censored] compared to its predecessor.

Now I understand where you're coming from a bit more.

I've played and supremely enjoyed Neverwinter Nights 2, Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer, Neverwinter Nights 2: Storm of Zehir, Titan Quest and Titan Quest Immortal Throne.

All games that fall under your "hardcoe rpg" category where you need to put sufficient points into skills to be able to hit things with frequency. And in NwN2 your skills determine the outcome of the entire game and it's expansions.

I loved those games, yet I dispized Morrowind.

Look at the facts, so many people absolutely adore Oblivion, yet like you yourself quoted there's a vast amount of the same people that started up Morrowind and could barely play through half an hour of it.

It's not about being a harcore or casual gamer, enjoying hardcoe or casual rpgs, first person shooters or otherwise. Morrowind just has some very very shaky mechanics compared to newer games like yes, Oblivion.

And that's why Bethesda improved on them, and made their games better, because they realize it. And they're good game developers.

I played Morrowind extensively, fueled by the hope of seeing this greatness that puts Oblivion to shame in it, but after doing nearly all that I want to do, I still don't see it. I gave the game a shot, a very optimistic shot, and I still found Oblivion to be the better game. May no one dare to say I never gave the game a shot. To reitirate, that is MY OPINION, and I'm sick of people not accepting that. I love the game, but I gave it a fair shot and didn't see it (what blew Oblivion out of the water), or perhaps unrealistic expectations always lead to diappointment (*hint*). I've almost always been an RPG-exclusive player, and I prefer Oblivion, my greatest RPG of all time. Many people have differing opinions on what an RPG is. I know some people who think Morrowind is an FPS (not kidding). Some people believe only turn-based games can be RPGs, some people believe MMORPGs and/or JRPGS aren't RPGs, others believe RPGs need dice rolls, others believe they need isometric views, and others believe dice rolls are outdated and make no sense for modern video gaming.

There hasn't been any sacrifices in the RPG world. The RPG's we see today are just like the ones before in that they retain the one thing that's really only necessary: immersion. By broadening the scope of the Elder Scrolls series with the usage of console gaming, people like me were able to discover the amazingness of the entire series. After playing Oblivion on the consoles, I was not only open to other RPG's, I was inclined to go a step further and play Morrowind on my PC. And you know what, so were thousands of other console gamers.

But to be serious, console gamers are just like PC gamers in that they play on their domain. Some PC gamers, like some console gamers, are hardcoe, while others on both venues tend to play smaller, puzzle-based games. Some console gamers love FPS's, just like, you guessed it, PC gamers. This whole argument as to which venue is "better" defeats the very purpose of video games and INSULTS everything video games have done for us. They are meant to open us to new worlds, no matter what the system or specs or console. I'd rather play a game like Oblivion on consoles and get completely immersed than sinking drearily into the cesspool that is World of Warcraft (which I did, and regretted). At the same time, I'm not going to play Call of Doody: Modern Poohfare on the consoles, I'd rather play something like Battlefield on the PC. Simple logic.

This argument however, is off topic. So back to this topic. Look, this whole argument probably began because the OP worded everything completely wrong. The thread should have been much more considerate towards console gamers who, as far as I know, want just as much as PC gamers. Besides, why not consider the opinions of these casual gamers? Take aside the whole "majority of sales" facts, and just consider this: shouldn't we give everyone a fair say on what Skyrim should or should not have? What exactly makes PC gamers, and Morrowind fans specifically, so special? Do they all wear matching bowties or know secret "handshakes" that the rest of us aren't aware of? Seriously, let me in on the secrets.

Let's give everyone a chance, because every gamer, even the ones who aren't on this forum, wants a good experience. They want something well-worth the 150+ hours expected from a Bethesda game. They want more quests, more characters, more choices. They want as much fun as you want, and then some. Love thy neighbor, my friend. Don't admonish him.

I can respect that, but like so many long time fans have pointed out, and most definitely is true Oblivion takes a step away from the rest of the series. If they continue that's fine, I'll find another series. I'd rather not, I love the TES series, but if it becomes more Action Adventure then RPG, then I'm afraid its outside my genre interest. Two Worlds II could be good if it fixed the thousands of problems made in Two Worlds.......

Speaking of Ashlands...I really enjoyed Vurt's version of the Ashlands.

Know that you are not alone.

While i don't agree with everything you just wrote, i was also somewhat disappointed after all the "Morrowind has the most stunning world you'll ever see" nonsense. Sure, Vvardenfell had this unwelcoming atmosphere that Cyrodiil kind of lacked but i hated that most of the map was covered of borring ashlands and i always tried to stay away from the center of the map. At first, i was not particular fond of the giant mushrooms either but i have to admit that they grew on me but still, i prefered the more earth like places like the Bitter coast and Solstheim. Same thing with the cities. Balmora, Seyda Neen, Pelagiad and Caldera was just more... i don't know, homely?

This thread's much too long for me to go through every page of it. Suffice it to say that Morrowind is the game people most commonly bring up as exemplary of what this series should be when talking about how the console players have ruined it... and also the game whose console releases on Xbox are responsible in great part for putting the overall series on the map and making it a success. Basically, console gamers are responsible because Bethesda changed things with the sequel to a game that sold extremely well to console gamers.

Casual gamers don't play RPGs and "mainstream" gamers rarely do, so I don't think there's a lot of point getting into either of those audiences.


I'd argue that that's not true, actually. Morrowind was vastly different from the rest of the series in terms of setting, tone, plot, visual design, and a pretty broad number of the mechanics and features. Oblivion's setting, looks, story, and several of its other elements (particularly things people complain about, like the level scaling and fast travel) are lifted directly from older games in the series.

Oblivion might be a step away from Morrowind, but Morrowind was a gigantic leap from the rest of the series and in a lot of ways Oblivion is much more in line with the first two games.

In the end I think we all want MORE, In every aspect. We don't want to lose content from a new engine, yet we want a new engine. Obviously its going to have to run on a 360, which will limit the game I suppose. The question is: has Beth been able to upgrade the graphics, which they said they have and for it to have as much content or more than its predecessors? I hope. Personally I want more content so I can make even more unique, novel role-plays.

:D good.


OK, you won, and I know they are fully fledged RPGs, and I wish you could play Might and Magic 7, but those games have a system that softens the blow on games, which is they can be paused any time and you can give command to the squad, and then when required pause the game again and give other commands to team members.

And I have been playing computer RPG games from the first that they have appeared, and were blobs of text on the screen, and had crunched numbers in order to know the outcome, so as you say I still don't see you as an RPG hard core player, even if you have played those games, from which I played the first, but did not continue, as it did not give me enough satisfaction.

By the way if you are into Bioware, then you should play their other masterpieces, like KOTOR series and "Jade Empire" which I loved, and of-course "DAO", not to mention their old classics.


Well as for wandering into harder areas without getting prepared before hand and improving your skills with mud crabs and the like, and trying to get better equipment before further adventuring, and encountering a strong specie that could kill you easily, without all of those preparation, then any hard core player could predict the outcome.


As you said yourself, you dropped it before you could get into its depth, so there.


As I said before, there are two types of RPG players, you know their names.


Not offering smooth pillows for newbie players is tough and Daggerfall was even tougher, but I do not deny that Morrowind had its problems, which mostly was because of the available technology of that time, and some design problems, but compared to Oblivion's dumbing down probblem, it was nothing.


Yes, Bethesda improved a lot of aspect of the Morrowind's old engine, and also dumbed it down to attract more casual RPG players as well, and got what they wanted.

But they learned a lot in the process, and I'm very hopeful for the future of the series.

Aye, the money from console sales is important to make gamesas a bigger, more badass company.

I also agree with some of the above posts; a ton of console gamers would love to see depth and complexity return. For example, Mass Effect 2 was one of the best games I've ever played, and yet I wished that a lot of the more "streamlined" missions and features would take a step back toward the slower, more spacy feel of the first game.

There are many aspects of greatness that Morrowind had that Oblivion lacks. There are also many advancements made in Oblivion that are too-often seen as "dumbing down". Personally, if I'm in a first-person point of view, I don't want dice-rolls determining every little thing. I want to swing my weapon, block, fling a spell, and beat that ass, as opposed to pressing attack repeatedly and hoping that I'd eventually get a hit. If letting the player do some things manually makes a game not a "true RPG", then "true RPGs" can svck it.

I'm a casual gamer, and I'm very proud to say that. I have a social life, I enjoy personal relationships, but every once in a while, I want to turn on the old Xbox or computer and play a video game. I like old fashioned RPGs as much as I like modern shooters. I don't think I fit into a specific category of people, I just want some entertainment.