It says the serpent is made of "Unstars" in the uesp. What are they?

Not-stars...? Maybe the opposite of tears in Oblivion leading to the Aetherius? I don't think we really know, unless there's some obscure text that I am unaware of.

Wait, seriously? I get such a kick out of that... one of my City of Heroes characters is named "Unstar." He's a sentient black hole (Gravity Control and Radiation Emission powers). Though... if it's an actual visible constellation, I wouldn't imagine the Serpent is made of black holes... eh, just a funny coincidence, I guess.

If a star is what lets magica into Mundus from Aetherius, would what the TES equivalent of a black hole be?

The serpent is the only sign not part of a season, and is said to not be made up of bright stars and planets. If you look at the http://images.uesp.net//5/57/Rg_telescope_serpent.jpg, it is the only birthsign not connected by bright stars, http://images.uesp.net//1/1e/Rg_telescope_lord.jpg http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:Rg_telescope_shadow.jpg http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:Rg_telescope_tower.jpg.

So what are "Unstars"? I'd assume they're the millions of dull un-lit stars in the sky, rather than the bright stars that make up the constellations of other birthsigns.

Hmmm... let's see if I can make a useful first post in the lore forum...

Well, we know that stars are believed to be holes in the veil / fabric of Oblivion, caused by the Magna Ge (followers of Magna) abandoning the creation of Mundus and fleeing to Aetherius (as Hellmouth stated above).

And, iirc, the stars of the Serpent move about in the sky.

So, how can holes in Oblivion move about?

Here are some pasages from an http://www.imperial-library.info/content/cosmology posted by former Developer Michael Kirkbride (found at the Imperial Library site):

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What is space?

Space is the interpretation of Oblivion, which is black and empty and surrounds the mortal plane. Space is infinite, but it acts just like a planet, in that Oblivion is 'surrounded' by Aetherius. You can see Aetherius by the stars.


What are stars?

The stars are the bridges to Aetherius, the magic plane. They are perceived as holes on the inside surface of space. Because they are on the inside of a sphere, all stars are equidistant from Nirn. Larger stars, therefore, are not closer to the mortal plane, they are just larger tears in Oblivion. The largest tear in Oblivion is Magnus, the sun.


What are shooting stars, then?

A misnomer. Shooting stars are bits of matter and magic, either from Oblivion or Aetherius, that sometimes move through the cosmos. The largest shooting stars are really planets with independent orbits, like Baan Dar the Rogue Plane.


What are constellations?

Constellations are collections of stars. Since each star is a bridge to magic, constellations are very powerful phenomena, and are revered. There are generally accepted to be thirteen constellations. Nine of these are made up completely of stars. Three others are called guardian constellations, as they are each governed by a Dominion Planet. The Dominion Planets are Akatosh (eye of the Warrior), Julianos (eye of the Sage), and Arkay (eye of the Thief). The last constellation is made up of unstars, and is called the Snake.


What is the sun?

Magnus is the sun, the largest hole in Oblivion, and the gateway to magic. Magnus was present at the creation of the mortal plane, and, in fact, was its architect (Lorkhan was its advocate and inspiration). Prehistoric (before ME2500, startyear) Nirn was a magical place, and highly unstable to the first mortals. Magnus then left, some say in disgust, and Oblivion filled in the void with the Void. His escape was not easy, and tatters of Magnus remain in the firmament as stars.


What is the sky?

The sky is another visual phenomenon caused by mortal mental stress, the night sky in particular. The sky is as impossible as planets; in essence, when you look into the sky, 'you look outside the material plane'. At night, Nirn is surrounded by Oblivion. The day sky is the multicolored elemental cloak of Magnus the sun. It changes colors as elemental influences rise and fall. Thus, when one looks at the day sky, they see into the raiments of Aetherius, and stare at magic.

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I don't think there's a clear-cut answer here...

But maybe 'unstars' are somewhat like the 'shooting stars' mentioned above. "Shooting stars are bits of matter and magic, either from Oblivion or Aetherius, that sometimes move through the cosmos."


Anyway, I hope this somewhat helps... and that I'm not making a complete fool out of myself...

Cheers!

Perhaps there is a clear pattern to the movement to the "unstars'" but the accepted cosmological model in Tamriel is simply insufficient to explain it.
[/heresy]

And it so happens that the only mention of these "unstars" is in the one document that outlines said cosmological model.

Don't be so rough with Crimson, he's the victim of a system.

You still fail to understand? But such ignorance is cause for little wonder in these times - times as desperate and truncated as your understanding.

I will tell you, only listen and tremble. The heavens are the womb-death our children sanctified long ago. The Aether-day is the golden future scarcely recalled. The Oblivion-night is the abysmal pause when neither word nor traveler finds rest. The planets are sarcophagi twisted and weeping with the pangs of labor. The stars are pyres reminding us of the blood our hands will know. The serpent is coiling, coiling, coiling to strike. The serpent is eating, eating, eating; sloughing off bits of the world as it coils, coils, coils to strike. In those scales we are unmade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4_3PVFSUxE>Unstars

Just sayin'

I was actually referring to what is said http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Firmament, even though it doesn't mention what it seems to consist of.

I actually find the Serpent's behavior very interesting. It can seemingly replace a constellation temporarily, without causing any lasting effects to it. Its movement across the night sky is distinctively independent from that of the statrs. Its motions are somewhat, but not fully predictable by Cyrodiil's cosmological model. For that matter, it seems even the Dwemer model couldn't model its path. And the Guardian Planes supposedly protect the constellations from it. These are what fuel my ideas regarding the Serpent.

:whistling:
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1118110-baraels-serpent-theory/page__p__16429761&#entry16429761

Beautiful.

Honestly, I never knew that there was another theorizing that the Serpent orbits Nirn anything.

Edit: Clarified. My theory was that it orbited Magnus (I got them confused), but this makes more sense. I have other ideas as to its behavior, but one at a time perhaps.

It's actually something I'm really interested in. I camped on Gnoll mountain for about an hour to observe it's passing last month. I didn't gain anything from that, but I it happened.

Edit: Sorry, didn't mean to post.

...Scaled Blanket, made of not-stars, whose number is thirteen...
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:36_Lessons_of_Vivec,_Sermon_33.

Ah, so there is another reference; I honestly haven't looked at the Sermons in a long while. Of course, the Sermons are bursting at the seams with metaphors, and they even include a "joke" about a renderer bug in Redguard, so assuming that the literal interpretation of that is the intended meaning, without any other sources to cross-reference, may be a little troublesome. (Not to say the Sermons are a useless reference.)

While we're on the subject of Sermon 33. Is he referencing The Mage or The Serpent in this line?

Nerevar made peace with the south-pole-star of thieving and the north-pole-star of warriors and the third-pole-star, which existed only in the ether, which was governed by the apprentice of Magnus the sun.

The three pole-stars are Arkay (eye of the Thief), Akatosh (eye of the Warrior), and Julianos (eye of the Mage).

They gave him leave to wander among their charges and gave him red sight by which to find Lie Rock in the Hidden Heaven.

Him refers to Nerevar. The Serpent is the Hidden Heaven.

While I don't doubt the relationships between the stars and the Aedra behind (?) them, the inclusion of Nerevar sounds highly mythic, as opposed to actual.

Also, what makes Hidden Heaven the Serpent?

See post #5: http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1046640-the-serpent/page__view__findpost__p__15189197

Lie Rock was born of Vivec's Second Aperture and was thrown out of the Pomegranate Banquet by a member of the Sweeps, another forgotten guild. The Sweep did not take it for the monster that it was and so he did not expect it to fly from his hand and into the heavens.

'I am born of golden wisdom and powers that should have forever been unalike! With this nature I am invited into the Hidden Heaven!'

By which he meant the Scaled Blanket, made of not-stars, whose number is thirteen.

Some very interesting thoughts there!


Here's two more cents from me...

Still thinking about how the 'un-stars' could be moving. Trying some out-of-the-box ideas here.

If the un-stars are also holes in Oblivion, like normal stars, then maybe it's not the un-stars that are moving, but the fabric of oblivion instead (relative to Mundus). Could this be a reasonable explanation?

Or maybe some of the Magna-Ge didn't make it to Aetherius, but got stuck somehow in Oblivion, where they still move around.


Taking a completely different road, I was thinking about the word 'star'.

http://www.etymonline.com
star (n.)
O.E. steorra, from P.Gmc. *sterron, *sternon (cf. O.S. sterro, O.N. stjarna, O.Fris. stera, Du. ster, O.H.G. sterro, Ger. Stern, Goth. stairno), from PIE *ster- (cf. Skt. star-, Hittite [censored]tar, Gk. aster, astron, L. stella, Bret. sterenn, Welsh seren "star"). Astrological sense of "influence of planets and zodiac on human affairs" is recorded from mid-13c.; star-crossed is from "Romeo and Juliet" (1592). Stars as a ranking of quality for hotels, restaurants, etc. are attested from 1886, originally in Baedecker guides. Brass star as a police badge is recorded from 1859 (New York City). Star-fruit (Damasonium stellatum) is first attested 1857; star-gazer is from 1550s. Starship first attested 1934 (in "Astounding Stories").

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/
Middle English sterre, from Old English steorra; see ster-3 in Indo-European roots.

The Dutch word for 'star' is 'ster', but the Dutch word 'star' means rigid, or not-flexible. So, an 'un-star' would actually be flexible (able to move about). I don't know how this translates into other languages. So maybe this is just a very far-fetched word play from Bethesda?




Another idea is that 'star' is somehow related to good luck and positivity:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/
thank one's lucky stars
to be grateful for one's good luck.

http://www.etymonline.com
starry
late 14c., from star + -y (2). Starry-eyed "unrealistically optimistic" is attested from 1884; earlier descriptive of bright eyes.

So, if stars have to do with positivity / good luck, then... un-stars have to do with negativity / bad luck...? And being born under the Serpent constellation is associated with bad luck, right?




What do you guys think? Am I making any sense at all??


... back to my cave...

I liked where you were headed with flexibility - opposed to rigidity (good thinking) - and nothing is totally characteristic of the Serpent.

No characteristics are common to all who are born under the sign of the Serpent. Those born under this sign are the most blessed and the most cursed.

It's a spontaneous constellation, a free-willed wanderer. The Godhead's uninhibited exploration of his consciousness.