What is Chim ?

Post » Tue May 17, 2011 12:55 am

what is Chim ? could someone please tell me ?
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Bryanna Vacchiano
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 12:45 am

In short, no, probably not.

You'd have better luck using the search button before everyone else gets here. >.>
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Amy Siebenhaar
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 8:45 am

In short, no, probably not.

You'd have better luck using the search button before everyone else gets here. >.>

all I wanna know is what a chim is *runs and hides and peeps around the corner at the wolves*
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Daniel Lozano
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 1:58 pm

CHIM is having a cake and eating it too.

Sorry. I'm bored.
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Jade MacSpade
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 1:50 pm

all I wanna know is what a chim is *runs and hides and peeps around the corner at the wolves*
TES version of becoming a god. Thats a incredibly simplified though, but thats the main point.

One that has CHIM is above mortality, above the holding strings of game programing. Its knowing that you are, but at the same time you are not. You are part of something that doesnt matter yet you continue on. Its complicated thing, this CHIM is. I maintain a notion that CHIM is becoming a part of the Godhead of TES universe and all the god things that come with it. :shrug:

Here is some further reading: http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=737865&hl=CHIM
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Sammygirl
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 2:03 pm

do a search on this forum, there are a wealth of thread which do an excellent job of explaining it. or even better: read vivec's teachings. they explain it perfectly.

my version:
CHIM is waking up from your lucid dream (life) and realizing that you are everything, and therefore nothing, while still retaining your individual identify.
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Pants
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 12:01 pm

I wrote this a few years ago. I'm not 100% in agreement with it still and I don't care for my style but I think it works as a decent crash course into TES cosmology.

Chim isn't something you can really grasp in a vacuum but its pretty simple when you have a idea of what the Aurbis really is.
The Mad God-Head Theory
A Reflection on Elder Scrolls Metaphysics

I don't suffer from insanity?

Let us begin with Sithis, as that is where things began. Before Sithis there was nothing, though some have names and stories for that nothing. In Sithis thoughts came to be. And in Sithis these thoughts were finished before they could materialize. This is the way things were supposed to be. Sithis is the state of a healthy mind. When our ideas become solid and start having ideas of their own: one becomes many and is lost amongst itself.

An ailment came to this healthy mind, though the nature of this ailment is unknown it is not so hard to speculate. The two ingredients for Sithis were Anu and Padomay, Stasis and Change, Order and Chaos. If the balance between these two were disrupted, say more Anu than Padomay, ideas would form and not be "consumed" quite as quickly. "Mentally unbalanced".

So, some ideas got stuck, itches were left unscratched in a manner of speaking. These were the first of the et'ada, the "original spirits", and the beginning of an unparalleled case of dementia. These first et'ada, among whom purportedly was Akatosh the dragon god of time, helped other ideas gain form and shape. Each passing moment, or cycle, Akatosh "saved" more. The world they knew is lost to us. One could guess that at this point there was only a growing case of multiple personality disorder and that they were all still familiar with reality. This, though, was only the beginning.

Eventually, presumably as the health of this mind worsened, the wash of Anu and Padomay began to give way entirely. The two parts became polarized in what is now known as Magicka and "Void". In a twisted sense, bi-polar. The et'ada reflected this in their "alignments".

It is around this time that the mind, naturally, tries to heal itself. Lorkhan, the "trickster", is born. He approaches the et'ada with a plan to create a world of their own (most likely as a contrast to reality). They would shape it and rule it how they pleased, if at great sacrifice to themselves. Lorkhan's intentions were of course otherwise, however his exact plan and whether or not he achieved what he set out to do is up for debate.

Most of the et'ada agreed to this and so they set to work creating all kinds of barriers to hold their fantasy world intact and keep reality at bay. Only too late for most of them was it realized that through their sacrifice they would cease to be independent beings. They would not rule in their fantasy world, they would become part of it; no longer capable of affecting the "Godhead".

All of the member-creators of this fantasy world, the Mundus, would come to be known as the Aedra. Those select few who had refused Lorkhan's pact, and their eventual minions (arguably their own dementia), would come to be known as the Daedra.

Ah, the Daedra. Those few who were wise enough, paranoid enough, or just plain lucky enough to avoid Lorkhan's trap. They looked at what the Godhead had done, he had created a fantasy world within himself, though in a way unwittingly and at the mercy of his own insanity. They decided to imitate this. They created realms inside of themselves, populated by minions which consisted of themselves (again, I believe this is them going through the same insanity of the Godhead, each of their minions is an aspect of their own split-personality). These were the realms of Oblivion.

A few of the Aedra did manage to escape their prison/fantasy world, Magnus being the chief amongst them. They are said to have gone to Aetherius, the origin of magicka, Oblivion's counterpart. The stars are the holes through which they escaped. Why the Mundus has not heard of them since is open to debate. One could argue (one being me) that the stars are bits of reality shining through onto what would be the graveyard plane of Mundus, but that's another proposal to be made at another time.

Despite these, relatively few, et'ada who escaped Lorkhan's plan (the stars and Daedra) it would have been a stunning success. He had trapped the vast majority of fractured personalities and they would all eventually die. However, something happened, as somethings often do. It is unclear whether the remaining (and now very pissed off) Aedra sidetracked the plan, or if Lorkhan became infatuated with his individuality and thus tried to stop the project himself.

All of the et'ada trapped on Mundus did eventually die, or rather ceased to be conscious (perhaps with the exceptions of Lorkhan and Trinimac who are survived in Sheogorath and Malacath respectively). However, some of them left aspects of themselves, the Ehlnofey who's descendents would number the "mortal" races.

Yes, reader, Akatosh is long since dead. Of course the mortal races, being pieces of pieces of a fractured mind do have a conduit by which they control their world. Their beliefs affect, to an extent, the Godhead's beliefs. Mind over matter, or matter of mind, as it were. And so their beliefs about the now dead Aedra can be projected into the world around them.

Let's recap. GH (Godhead) went insane. His many personalities derailed his consciousness almost entirely. In response, Lorkhan is born. Lorkhan tricks most of the fractured personalities to follow him (like the pied-piper) into their own private world completely separate from reality, where he was to then let them all rot and die for the sake of GH's sanity (presumably). Those who did not follow Lorhkan, the Daedra, became insane and imitated the cycle, spawning many smaller personalities of their own in the realms of Oblivion. Those who escaped Lorkhan's plan were never heard from again. After Lorkhan's "failure" Mundus became somewhat similar to the original Sithis, "mortals" coming and going. Thus, the Aedra were, for the most part, sane. That doesn't help GH's sanity any, though, as it is now even more fractured than before.

That brings us up to speed and is the current state of things. Of course it cannot remain this way forever. Nordic legends imply that Lorkhan had an accomplice in his plan (undermining one system to fix another). The esteemed Mehrunes Dagon. This is easy for me to believe in that his realm, destruction, would be vital for the curing of the GH. If all of the fractured personalities were killed off things could start really healing. Of course Dagon is himself insane, which kind of puts a damper on things. He neurotically destroys, unaware of why anymore. So the mission is lost.

The GH will continue to try and cure itself, fighting against it's own insanity. It will try to reunite all of it's fractured personalities or, barring that, get rid of them. That is what Chim is, the realization of not being the individual you thought you were but still existing. "You" cease to exist, but return to the GH, and so you really only begin to "exist" in reality. That is the final note of the Mundus, and the realms beyond. The returning to Sithis, mental health, and reality. Whether that's a good thing probably depends on who you ask.

Or perhaps the many layers of insanity will continue to quash each other's attempts at a cure. The Mundus, with it's keepers dead, will continue on and on until finally the GH's divine flare expires. The returning to that nothing of before, for which some have names and stories for.


Additions:
The Sithis Shaped Hole

"Sheogorath (The Mad God): The fearful obeisance of Sheogorath is widespread, and is found in most Tamrielic quarters. Contemporary sources indicate that his roots are in Aldmeri creation stories; therein, he is 'born' when Lorkhan's divine spark is removed. One crucial myth calls him the 'Sithis-shaped hole' of the world." - Varieties of Faith in the Empire

It is possible that Trinimac ripped out Lorkhan's heart, as some legends say, and at this point perhaps Sheogorath was born. That doesn't need much explaining, though, and is kind of dull. I have another theory:

Lorkhan was created to restore Sithis; to restore sanity. This requires all of the fractured-personalities to let go and achieve Chim. To lose their individuality and return to the whole. Many if not most of the spirits (et'ada, mortal, or otherwise) are not going to be crazy [excuse the pun] about that. Lorkhan was no exception. Utterly afraid to lose his individuality, his personality, he became something different. What he became was Sheogorath, the god of madness -- insanity.

This irony was all that was left for the personality born to restore sanity; madness was all that was left. What is the significance of his heart being left? It gets mighty figurative here, but someone's "heart" is their essence. His essence, his purpose, was sanity. The only way he could reasonably hold onto his individuality was to lose that essence and become insane. His heart was "torn out". Possibly with the voluntary aid of Trinimac, possibly not.

Sheogorath is the "Sithis shaped hole" -- the absence of Sithis -- the absence of sanity -- madness. I believe this phrase confirms that Sithis represents sanity.

thanks: Carrickfergus

Important Quotes:

"Pretty soon the spirits on the skin-ball started to die, because they were very far from the real world of Satakal." - "Satakal the Worldskin", Yokudan Creation Myth, Monomyth

[Here we have reference to a "real world" which the et'ada needed, lest they die. I'm pretty sure "Satakal" is in reference to Sithis. Why are the mortal races mortal, afterall? Can an idea which has no connection or correlation with reality last for long, even in a deranged mind?]

"One of these, Lorkhan, was more of a limit than a nature, so he could never last long anywhere." - "The Heart of the World", Altmeri Creation Myth, Monomyth

[What is sanity but a rational limit on what is considered possible? How long could it last when surrounded by insanity and impossibility?]

"So Sithis begat Lorkhan and sent him to destroy the universe." - Sithis

"What is the Tower's secret?
How to permanently exist beyond duplexity, antithesis, or trouble. This is not an easy concept, I know. Imagine being able to feel with all of your senses the relentless alien terror that is God and your place in it, which is everywhere and therefore nowhere, and realizing that it means the total dissolution of your individuality into boundless being. Imagine that and then still being able to say "I". The "I" is the Tower." - Vehk's Teachings

"It is the existence of the True Self within the Universal Self?" - Vehk's Teachings

Sources:
http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml
http://til.gamingsource.net/obbooks/sithis.shtml
http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/varietiesoffaith.shtml
http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/aldudagga.shtml
http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml#3

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naana
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 1:29 pm

Thanks for the replies guys , TOYB asked me to ask in the Elder scrolls lore section of the forums what Chim is , because he thought id be eaten alive by beth forum wolves. atleast i learned something though , chim sounds interesting :) (im more interested in elder scrolls lore now), lol TOYB you didn't get your laugh ? or did you ?
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Minako
 
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Post » Mon May 16, 2011 11:09 pm

Yeah, he played a prank on you. I suppose it's because in the latest CHIM thread (which wasn't about what it was, but about how it was used by Beth), the thread was derailed by people insisting on explaining that they wouldn't explain what CHIM is, and other people replying that nobody asked them what it was.
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Lloyd Muldowney
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 8:05 am

Given the number of CHIM-related threads that have appeared, this post will probably make no difference.

But, I feel that this needs to be said. So, I'll say it once and then I'll (hopefully) let it go.

No one can tell you what CHIM is. I know that's been said before, but I don't think everyone's quite clear on why this is.

It's not really that it's better for you to figure it out for yourself, although that's sort of the reason. It's because you can only figure it out for yourself.

There's a difference between episteme and praxis knowledge. People can only tell you episteme.

Different forum-goers have different definitions of CHIM, and some of them are basically right, but that only captures the episteme meaning.

To understand CHIM it's not enough just to know something. You have to do something.

And no, I can't tell you what you have to do. It's not about a specific action, it's about a doing.
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BethanyRhain
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 4:22 am


"I'll tell ya about the magic it'll free your soul, but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll..."
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Cheville Thompson
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 10:23 am

CHIM is an very large, multifaceted idea, but this is the angle from which I view it.

You've got these two... things. You might call them "gods," but you won't find anyone calling out to them in prayer. You might call them "universes," but you won't find anyone traveling there... I don't think.

But one represents the idea of everything staying the same, all the time, never ever ever changing. Imagine supreme boredom. Multiply that by a thousand. Multiply the result by a few more thousands. Realize that living things are constantly changing: that growth is change, that metabolism is change, and realize that this is not the "good" side.

The other represents the idea of nothing staying the same, for any length of time. Imagine a guy sitting there, flipping channels, and there's an infinite number of channels, and the guy flipping will NEVER stop anywhere to see what anything's about. Realize that living things are dependent upon certain continuities, that while our material composition is ever changing, our basic form is dependent upon consistent patterns... and realize that this is ALSO not the "good" side.

These two forces collide, conflict, interact, and the result is what forumites call the "gray maybe." It's a place where things change, yet things can continue, a place where the Original Spirits live(d), a place where the place we call home is capable of existing.

Did I mention that both of the entities described earlier are components of an even greater entity? The two are constantly involved in a struggle to the death, and yet, are both the same guy, in a sense.

You exist only as a portion of this schizophrenic superentity. To fully realize this is to lose one's sense of individuality, to "realize" that free will is an illusion, that individual ambition is vanity, that one's life is but a component in a senseless greater play.

Unless, of course, you don't. If you can perceive the cosmic battle with the perspective of an outsider, can look upon the universe and its causes and say "And yet, I exist independently" or, more succinctly, can still say "I" at all, you become a universe, or a god; and the sovereign of that universe, the head of that god--or what have you, unto yourself. In a sense, you become the equal of that original superentity, but on what scale? I really don't know. But that, at any rate, that, I believe, is CHIM... not to say that there isn't much more to it.
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Jessie Butterfield
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 6:51 am

CHIM is opening up the console and using console commands. Zero-summing is when you get a CTD. ;)

Yeah, I know, overly simplistic. But, useful for a quick 'n' dirty metaphor.

EDIT: It's like in social psychology. Reality is socially constructed. You can either give up hope and feel like everything is relative, there is no truth, what is the point. <- that is zero-summing. CHIM is realizing that this means you can shape reality. :)
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matt oneil
 
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Post » Mon May 16, 2011 11:31 pm

EDIT: It's like in social psychology. Reality is socially constructed. You can either give up hope and feel like everything is relative, there is no truth, what is the point. <- that is zero-summing. CHIM is realizing that this means you can shape reality. :)


I like that explanation a lot.
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Horror- Puppe
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 2:26 am

CHIM is an very large, multifaceted idea, but this is the angle from which I view it.

You've got these two... things. You might call them "gods," but you won't find anyone calling out to them in prayer. You might call them "universes," but you won't find anyone traveling there... I don't think.

But one represents the idea of everything staying the same, all the time, never ever ever changing. Imagine supreme boredom. Multiply that by a thousand. Multiply the result by a few more thousands. Realize that living things are constantly changing: that growth is change, that metabolism is change, and realize that this is not the "good" side.

The other represents the idea of nothing staying the same, for any length of time. Imagine a guy sitting there, flipping channels, and there's an infinite number of channels, and the guy flipping will NEVER stop anywhere to see what anything's about. Realize that living things are dependent upon certain continuities, that while our material composition is ever changing, our basic form is dependent upon consistent patterns... and realize that this is ALSO not the "good" side.

These two forces collide, conflict, interact, and the result is what forumites call the "gray maybe." It's a place where things change, yet things can continue, a place where the Original Spirits live(d), a place where the place we call home is capable of existing.

Did I mention that both of the entities described earlier are components of an even greater entity? The two are constantly involved in a struggle to the death, and yet, are both the same guy, in a sense.

You exist only as a portion of this schizophrenic superentity. To fully realize this is to lose one's sense of individuality, to "realize" that free will is an illusion, that individual ambition is vanity, that one's life is but a component in a senseless greater play.

Unless, of course, you don't. If you can perceive the cosmic battle with the perspective of an outsider, can look upon the universe and its causes and say "And yet, I exist independently" or, more succinctly, can still say "I" at all, you become a universe, or a god; and the sovereign of that universe, the head of that god--or what have you, unto yourself. In a sense, you become the equal of that original superentity, but on what scale? I really don't know. But that, at any rate, that, I believe, is CHIM... not to say that there isn't much more to it.


Read: Cogito ergo sum -> I think, therefore I am.
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Samantha Pattison
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 4:40 am

http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=550458&hl=
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Wayne Cole
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 3:37 am

To have CHIM is to be able to stare a paradox in the face and make sense of it. Basically what everyone else already said, I suppose. It's hard to explain because at a glance, it seems illogical.
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Lew.p
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 5:01 am

I've never come to a realistic understanding of it, as it seems everyone's explanation for it is just a their abstract interpretion of something that doesn't really make sense.

To be slightly hypocritical, as I just got finished saying in another thread that comparing TES things to real things isn't accurate.. I'd say its just one of bethesda's versions of the many forms of divine enlightenment seen in many mystical groups. Go ahead and look up "Brahman-Atman", a hindu vedanta belief. Concider a combination of that and the more typical hindu/eastern belief of being reincarnated as a higher being.

Hope that helps you some how. :-p
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CRuzIta LUVz grlz
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 6:14 am

It's more than that.
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Ben sutton
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 1:02 pm

Is CHIM becoming one with all reality, space and time, while preserving one's identity? Reprogramming the software of existence at will? Probably not, but sounds like this.
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Siobhan Thompson
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 6:07 am

Chim is realising you are everything yet nothing( your a character in a game so you dont really exist but then say instead of accepting it you say you do exist) without going into zero-sum where you lose your identity.

I hope that was the right way of putting it :)
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Pants
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 7:54 am

Glad that's been reiterated.
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Bryanna Vacchiano
 
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