Nobody here achieved CHIM. The concept of CHIM is only true within the TES universe. Furthermore, you are forgetting a key part to achieving CHIM. You don't just have to understand it, you have to believe it.

Vivec went on to attain Chim, because he was born the son of a Netchiman, with the taker's gift, so peculiar, he married the King of [censored]. Only some [censored], from Nowhere, Veloth, born into a [censored]-life - mother's probably a big [censored], and daddy's a [censored], and Vehk's a whiny [censored] dreamer - could find a way to love getting [censored] over by the world and return the favor, with a [censored]-block the shape of [self-esteem]. This is CHIM: when the world busts your balls, in the first two rounds, but you, being a nobody with a true, unlearned gift, throw a left hook and finish with an uppercut, in the third. The Mother-Father's love is the journey of Sun, through toothed and sensual skies.* Not one taste: in doubt.


*The Soft Doctrines of Magnus the Invisible say so.

So that means even with the information, it's impossible for any academic to get Oh, I love making jokes about academia.

But yes, this is the hardest part of CHIM, and really all of TES metaphysics, is the difference between saying "I think Alduin is the world eater" and saying "Alduin is the world eater." You can say "I am the dream of a dreaming god but I choose to be me," but will likely believe neither the former nor the latter.

Absolutely not. You are simply aware of the Fourth Wall.

And I've seen hundreds of people suggest that the CS is like CHIM. Okay then, show me Akavir and ragdoll physics and a playable interior cell with a Summon Sea of Ghosts racial ability.

It's a simile. You said it yourself, it's like being in the CS. For a RL version of the simile, it'd be like if we managed to put our consciousness into the base-code of the universe and not just integrate ourselves into the fabric of reality. We could then alter the reality so that, for instance, it didn't take so darn long to go between planets, but then because of that, the Earth boils, or millions of people suddenly and fatally crash their car from acceleration suddenly not working the way it's expected. So rather than do that, wouldn't you rather just want to alter things a bit more subtly so that you create the ideal environments so that humans could achieve this on their own?

The CS is just the ability to tweak and edit. Sort of cheapens the idea while still being inaccurate. The game isn't the whole universe and we don't have access to the base code. Maybe the SDK for the Source Engine is a bit closer, but still.

It's been quite a while since someone posted in this thread.

Vivec said something like 'CHIM is being everything while this being I" Basically means that Vehk's omnipotent and omnipresent, he's a know-it-all, he's everywhere, anytime, he's the world, together with other Godheads, say, Talos...I'm not sure, I'm not a lore-master.Vehk's now much like the way our God is said to be (it's just a silly comparison, don't get started on it please!).
Now about the 'everything's a dream' part, why would that be a problem? It simply means it's the vision of a god and if you want, virtual reality.I'm not saying that I subscribe to the 'Vivec and the CS' theory, though I really like it.

The stuff in the sermons are mostly about Chim, but as all the other things Vivec said or wrote, you can interpret them in 2 ways (the bastard never betrays his dual nature ).Vivec the Tribune, who's mortal (or becomes mortal) and hence, killable, could be talking to the Nerevarine in the sermons.BUT if he had indeed achieved Chim (and I strongly believe so), then Vivec the Almsivi is just the in-game avatar of Vivec's higher-self.In this case there would also be Vivec the mofo Godhead teaching the player to beat his (Vivec's) own game.
If that's the case, Vivec does never really die...xD I still don't know why players like to kill him, he ain't a bad guy actually.

Now whether the Nerevarine achieved Chim or not...I honestly don't know. Still, I remember that Vivec mentioned in one of the sermons that if the Nerevarine and Dagoth Ur had switched places, there would be one and only one difference between them, and only Vivec would have known what it was.

If you ask him in-game he will tell you exactly this.

This is the first time I've seen a theory regarding the CS and CHIM, and I don't agree with it; but I've been thinking for a while that you could equate the player to lorkhan, making the player character a shezzarine. I suppose bethesda would be the godhead. I haven't thought about it much further than that, because it basically becomes the plot of Tron. If vivec achieved CHIM, by this logic, he would come out in some dude's living room or as a split personality of MK.

To address the original question, although its an old post; is the idea that everything is inside a dream any better that that its all just a game? On the other hand, is there any point in the idea of a godhead at all, or is it the same as the age old question: if Anu and Padomay created everything, than what created them? And what came before the godhead, and what came before that?

To the OP's denials and whining...

I don't like disease, famine, genocide, homocide, suicide, patricide, pesticides, global warming, crime, illiteracy, STD's, natural disasters, bad weather, waiting lines, Department of Public Safety offices, food poisoning, skinny jeans, child abuse, vegetables, speed limits, women's sports, Mondays, cutting myself shaving, my hours, my rent, the price of gas, or having a set of sweaty genitals in a pair of jeans.

But I don't deny that all of those exist.

Reject your (metaphorical) atheism and become an agnostic. You don't have to acknowledge the veracity of this lore--despite who wrote it--just the possibility of it.

Why do I find this so funny? Is it because you said something important in a way that actually would make sense to someone without a full classical education?

It doesn't require a full classical education. Just some curiosity and a library card.

I have been in the OP's position and I can relate to his initial comments...

I do not believe the godhead is mad...or that the universe he has brought into being is out of control.

I see the godhead growing itself from seed to full potential'.

Basically it has set creation in motion to allow it consciously realize all things within itself.

There is a method to it all. Anu did something similar when he created Anuiel to contemplate his own soul...

That is what the TES universe is founded upon.


As everything within the universe gains experience, so does the godhead

Could Aedra/Daedra achieve CHIM?

So, that implies yes. No reason why they couldn't, I think.

I think the more important question is this: WOULD Aedra/Daedra achieve CHIM?

The answer appears to be no. CHIM does not seem to be appealing, of interest, or worth the risk to the other et'Ada. Even Lorkhan, the champion of CHIM, chose not to succeed so that others might learn from his failings.

I thought once you got to this point, you would either CHIM, or zero-sum. If one fails to CHIM, would they not by default zero sum themselves out of (or into) existence? would this even apply to Shor?

(It's been a long time since I posted anything in the lore forum because of how unpleasant my last visit was (mostly due to the topic of CHIM), so if you have anything to say about my post, then please do so in a polite manner, please )


I think everything boils down to the good ol' subject of subjective vs. objective view of the universe (that's what it's called if I'm not mistaken).
If you are a writer (the objective viewer), you know everything about the story you are writing, and time within the story you're writing has no effect on you at all in the real world. If you write that a character does a certain thing, then that character will always have done that thing at that time; and if you replace that action, that character will always have done the new thing at that time instead. If you replace a name on page 1, the former name is just gone.
If you are a character in this story (the subjective viewer), everything depends on the writer. You live in whatever form of time the writer has decided exists in your world, and you do whatever the writer writes you are doing; yet you will perceive it as free will, because there is no way for you to experience the changes being forced onto you by someone with an objective view of your universe. If the writer has changed the name on page one, the name will always have been that name. The former name has never existed. If the writer changes what you did 10 minutes ago, that will always have been the case. Your previous action never existed in anyone's mind except for the writer's.

Now, if we apply this to TES; the writer in the previous example isn't a writer, but a god who's sleeping, and the story is his dream. This god happens to be mad, and the dream is quite lucid. The dream has (in a subjective view) been going on for an extremely long time, and the god has started to love his "creation".
I don't think that anyone can achieve CHIM on his/her own; I believe CHIM is what you achieve when the dreaming god fancies your actions and is beginning to identify with you in an extreme way due to his madness; thus, as time goes on, you become more like the dreamer/the dreamer becomes more like you until you have joined him in dreaming through what you perceive as your own actions subjectively, whereas the original dreamer has, piece by piece, been merging with you and through his "objective powers" he's been guiding you (and, perhaps unknowingly, changing himself to become you as well).
So, basically, I believe that CHIM is what you achieve when the dreamer thinks you're a pretty cool guy, and is more or less intrigued by/jealous of you.
Breaking out of a subjective world view is impossible on your own (you can liken this to being the character in a story and somehow becoming the writer; impossible). The key ingredient is that the writer is insane and starts identifying so much with your character that eventually, he will be you and you will be him (sorta like the movie "23" with Jim Carrey, if I remember correctly?).
The "retaining the 'I'" part that is oh-so-important is simply that you as a character in the story always has to care about the story and loving it (and yourself, considering you are part of it) as much as the dreamer who created it; thus always wanting to be a part of it and your "subjective self" (keyword: love).

When you drag this out of the TES universe and into this universe, I believe Bethesda is the dreamer and TES is the dream. I guess MK stands for the insane part of the dreamer, eh? :laugh:
(But seriously, though, MK roleplaying as Vivec in "Trial of Vivec" is practically how Vivec has CHIM. When roleplaying, you are your character and vice-versa; and considering MK is part of writing the MW story he is the dreamer, Vivec is MK and they are the writer at that point).


My two cents, they were. And, as I said in the beginning; if you want to discuss a part of it then DISCUSS it, don't bicker and argue. I got enough of that last time.


(Also, at time of posting it is the 11th of April 2011, making it 6 years since I joined the forums. Go me!)

@Maiq


Fantastic post...


Your anologies were excellent. I wish you would post more in the lore forum, We need more people like you here to help untangle this confusing lore

My mind nearly bled to death when I tried understanding some of the metaphysics of TES before, but thanks to you I kind of sorta understand the idea. Well written. You took a complex idea and broke it down piece by piece until it was comprehensible, thanks brotaco.

I wonder why none of these concepts are ever discussed in game.


I wonder why

Is it because the devs themselves do not understand it?

@M'Aiq I really enjoyed reading your perspective.

I wanted to try and add to it by likening a being which exists in one dimensional space somehow needing to not only comprehend third dimensional space but believe he is part of it.

1d guy isn't even quite a dot to 3d guy but to 1d guy he, the World and everything in it is a great expanse of nothing.

Make sense? Good, I've confused myself.

These concepts don't appear directly and obviously in-game because they exist to provide depth and subtlety; a rich background there for people to explore and extrapolate upon if they wish, but not to be forced upon them.

When I first posted in this thread I was very ignorant and naive about this subject, but thanks to people like Ma'iq and Hellmouth, I have at least a basic understanding. Thanks guys