I don't get why it's so controversial on these boards too. What is it? Where in Elder Scrolls Lore does it explain what it is? How do we know it exists in TES lore? Any proof? Everyone seems to have this firm idea that CHIM is true in TES.

How do we know? Why isn't it's explanation clear. AND WHAT BETHESDA EMPLOYEE THOUGHT OF THIS CONFUSING IDEA!

Lol, seriously though. I'm confused.

EDIT: And what is this about the Godhead? I've never seen that mentioned anywhere except from people talking about TES lore, like they made it up. Why would Bethesda want the entire series to be a "dream." That's stupid IMO.

Now as the ladder of life hast been strung, you may think a writer's on the bottommost rung.

As for who came up with it, I believe it was Michael Kirkbride a former Bethesda designer who has continued to do contract work for the series off and on and in fact is currently helping us with http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1159381-dominion-prism-textract-partial/. (That may even clarify CHIM for you.)

This should help start things off.

How do we know that Vivec isn't lying? It just seems like his philosophy, or religion even. How do we know that all he is saying is true and that he isn't just a very powerful mage? Not all books in TES are true, Todd Howard even mentions how conflicting books add to the authenticity of TES.

EDIT: "the new Terms & Conditions for the forums."

What is this a link to? I didn't understand one word from that topic... I'm confused out of my mind. What does that have to do with the forum's Terms & Conditions? :confused:

The Dreamsleeve is a recycle bin of souls.

CHIM is when you learn that you are all and you. Here's a link with some explaining at least http://www.imperial-library.info/content/loveletter-fifth-era-true-purpose-tamriel.

Sorry in a hurry so good luck, it's not easy being lost in your own mind.

Haha. Awesome.

First off, its probably a good thing to stop calling anything you don't understand or like "stupid."

CHIM and the Godhead are both pretty high level metaphysical concepts, so any explanation of them is going to be somewhat difficult to understand. Most of the references to CHIM and the godhead are not found in the games (they are posted directly on these boards by Bethesda contractor Michael Kirkbride), which is why you might not have run into them before. The http://www.imperial-library.info/content/oblivion-mythic-dawn-commentaries and the http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-thirty-six-lessons-vivec are important texts dealing with both issues that are found in game. Other than those, check out http://www.imperial-library.info/content/vehks-teaching and the http://www.imperial-library.info/content/loveletter-fifth-era-true-purpose-tamriel.


His views are supported and echoed elsewhere.

How do we know he wasn't lying? We don't! You decide if he was full of [NUMMIT] or was being truthful. He lived an extremely long life, had a lot of time to think about the world and things, and the idea behind the Godhead isn't something he pulled out of his butt. But hey, if you think he's full of [NUMMIT], that's what you decide to believe. It's not like he's really relevant anymore.

A lot of us who frequent here tend to say it's true, unless new information comes out that says otherwise.

Oh boy.

It's explained subtly, because the writers at Bethesda, full-time, freelance, or both, like us. Rather than beat us over the head with obscure philosophy, they have Vivec leave clues.

And most of the information does come from Vivec, and he may be lying. We have no way of knowing for certain if he is or isn't. I have a theory as to why he may be, or why he may not be. He could also simply be wrong or insane, but those are a lot less interesting than the other two.

The reason may people on the forum believe it to be true is because they find it to be the most interesting idea present as to the mechanics of Nirn. If you disagree that's fine, as I often try to look for other ideas, but don't just reject it. Think up something else, using the lore, and put it forward.

This is where I get confused. This being the essence of CHIM, it seems like such a vague concept. This seems more like a vague philosophy than a known trait of TES world.

The TES world is inherently mythical. The metaphysical realities (schizophrenic godhead and all that) matter about as much to an average Cyrodil as quantum physics do to an average American. Doesn't make them any less real or relevant, though.

being everything, but also remaining as an individual is, pretty, what CHIM is. It's a paradox, yeah, but that's the point.

Hell, CHIM or not I'm pretty sure paradox is necessary for mortals to become gods in TES. Mantling means you are you, but also someone else. enantinomorph means you are you and your worst enemy and polar opposite. CHIM means you're everything at once but still you.

I wonder what the Scarab that Becomes New Man will be? A beetle hit with radiation and become a bug man ?

Thanks!


Sorry that's Michael Kirkbride's latest work, it has nothing to do with the forum's T&C that was just a humorous comparison since it's appearance is similar to the T&C's legalese. I figured it you were interested in CHIM you may also like to see another example of his writing; it also demonstrates that MK's work often take some time to decipher let along understand - with Dominion Prism Textract probably being one of the more extreme examplesf of that. I'd suggest starting with the 36 Sermons of Vivec as I found it the most easily digestible - take this with the caveat that I stick more to the texts on TES history and society rather than meta-physics so I can hardly be considered well-versed on MK's works.

I figure MK's sort of a cross between Douglas Hofstadter and F. David Peat, except more eccentric and probably a little mad.

Lady N.

I'm sorry if my last sentence sounded to be aimed at the OP.
It was meant to be aimed at me.
Busy, and a lot on my mind therefore lost in it.

Just to clear that.

Sorry OP if you thought I meant you any harm.

eh, wha?

Oh... for gods sake.

English ain't my first language.
I reread the first post and Lady Ns' post now... and I see my mistake.

She didn't mean my post, she meant his last words.

Well at least people cant take my post for an insult now...

I don't see how you were being insulting. If anything, I've been the harsh one in a bunch in these threads already. All well.

Well the last part of my post there could have been insulting at least that was what I first thought.

But it's all well now and the bunnies of Numidium can sprinkle their brass wherever they please.

CHIM is a difficult concept to grasp, I don't fully understand it yet. As for Godhead, it is a metaphysical concept that is so high up that it can be easily left ignored should you want to. When I first learned about the Godhead, and how everything is merely a concept in his dream, I thought that I'd never be able to think of TES the same way again. The writers were very clever in the way they very subtly left clues about it; one can ignore it completely if they so choose.

That is why the concept of CHIM was so well executed: If you don't like it, then pretend it's not there. It won't do you any harm.

I've just started reading about the Godhead, and even though you can just ignore it, I really hope it's not the truth because it would ruin the way i view Nirn and the world. What happens when the Godhead awakes, by the way? Is it the end of existence

It's not like a regular person dreaming, you know, it's the [censored] Godhead. And the Godhead is insane.

So who know's if and when the Godhead awakes, right? Or what happens? Assuming the Godhead is real (which i doubt)

Godhead is canon. CHIM is canon. When I first read about it, I was like "No way! This can't be canon in TES!", but it is if you like it or not. You have a right to dislike of course, but the fact of the matter is that it is official in TES lore. If it bothers you that much, then ignore it. If you can't, then perhaps you can't like TES anymore. Simple as that.

I think people don't fully understand it. Admittedly, I don't either. But Godhead should not be thought of as "a guy who's dreaming all this up", it should be thought of as a superior metaphysical concept. Being only 16, it's kind of hard for me to understand of all this "metaphysical concept" stuff completely. But I'll continue to try.