Yet it wasn't stupid, like I said you could build whole classes of characters around it and it could even be expanded on, making it brilliant. And luck didnt even effect loot in OB either. Merging personality with speech-craft is dumbing down the game, merging two distinct variables into one.

GAH.

Why do people refuse to understand this?! It is so obvious.

Oblivion:

SKILL LEVEL -> attributes (at level up) -> character

For example
Increase a strength based skill and you can raise your strength at level up.
Strength then changes attack power and encumbrance.


Skyrim:

SKILL LEVEL -> character

The combined skill level of all skills that somehow involves the character strength will then determine encumbrance.


Attributes where nothing but a step between skills and properties of the character, they took them out because they where mathematically redundant. The system (regarding the attributes) is almost exactly the same as Oblivion, save for rebalance.

What are the two variables? I'm not seeing them from a gameplay point-of-view.

Le gasp!

You mean they are holding back information to create hype? No way! Those cruel bastards.


They thought of something. You people assume these decisions are arbitrary and done for the hell of its. They addressed 90% of all these things in some way, but they just havnt told us. Heaven forbid we go into a game not knowing everything there is to know...

No they were not redundant, they had two distinct yet interwoven variables and apparently merged them. There's more depth and variety with attributes than without. the only people that found them redundant didnt understand what they represented in the first place.


Play the games?

Ok I will explain better I think then most..

Take your entire character... you see 5 boxes. perks race stats and skill and the stones...

The biggest box by far is perks... likely bigger then all 4 other boxes combined.

The next box is LIKELY stats.. health magica and stamina... and we know race effects starting values in these.... and that you get health every level and EITHER more health some magicka or some stamina..

The next box down is race... we dont know how big it is we do THINK its bigger then last time...

The next box is LIKELY the stones... these do stuff we dont realy know yet likely what doomstones did and then some...

Then we have skill.. we know its MUCH smaller then the skill box of ob but we dont know how much smaller it might be bigger then doomstones in effect but im not betting on it..

Now all that stuff you askes is somehow somewhere in those boxes... BUT m,ight not be anything like they used to be...

Example.. runspeed. We might not have any runspeed changes.. instead to run faster more of the time you MIGHT simply need alot of stamina to sprint more often.. IF however there are more then one runspeed... the trigger is obviously in the perk or race box.

Example What determines the percentage chance you will be knocked down in combat?... thats the block skill and likely block perks quite possibly on the left most perk line in block which seems to deal in defensive use of shields...

Example What determines magical resistance? We know a block perk offers some ... we have yet to see destruction perks so we cant tell if they have a defnesive perkline.. not to mention alteration perklines... it might also be gobbled up by race now.. we dont know yet. It might not exist anymore even.

Example What determines carry weight? They have already said we can carry ALOT more then before and we now know some stuff is in fact weightless like in fallout.... We also know the character they play can carry 300 lb of stuff... We dont know if it started at 300 or not but based on fallout I would expect it started fairly high. They have not gone into detaqil on this yet which is MIGHTY annoying.


In fact we dont KNOW any of the mechanics all that much anymore and have to hope the overly secretive buggers open thier bloody freaking traps well before the game goes gold so we can scream bloody murder at everything they bleep up.... But they prolly wont. Mind you alot of that can be that its not CODED YET. Its only june after all and they tend to code alot of these bits final details in beta.. whioch we are about as likely to be near as alpha centauri...

This right here, is absolutely correct!!!




The attributes were not extraneous, they werent a tack on they had very real effects on a character

Nothing changed carry weight EXCEPT the strength attributes, nothing at all

Nothing change character movement rate EXCEPT the speed attribute

There were alot of things only the attribute did in both morrowind and oblivion and buy removing them and simplifying them into either perks or skills its less. Just less.

Maybe you do not understand the mathematics involved? I am not stating an opinion but a mathematical fact based on knowledge of the game system.

In fact, using the skill level directly could possibly allow for greater variety.
The attributes took a number of possible skill level combinations and compressed them into a single attribute value (10 blunt and 5 blade would give the same result as 5 blunt and 10 blade, this is true since we know that the skill levels where not weighted; the increase in attributes was the same independent of which skill was levelled up).
Now, they may actually weight each skill level, so that 1 level of one handed may increase encumbrance less than 1 level of two handed etc.

The function from skill level to character properties is many-to-one in Oblivion, thus information is lost.

Maybe you dont? There's more variety in attributes, skills and perks, than just skills and perks. The 100 in blade, 70 in strength character was different than the 100 in blade 90 in strength character. This is now lost. Its a fact, attributes add depth and variety.

You did not understand my post. Read it again please.

In Oblivion, strength based skills determined strength, and thus carry weight.

In Skyrim, strength based skills determine carry weight directly, instead of being compressed into an attribute.

You could always raise your strength at level up, regardless of whether you used even a single strength-based skill. The only thing affected were the stat multipliers.

Strenght based skills without strenght..........:lmao:

Because the concept of strength no longer exists without a number to define it.

Please, I just explained in mathematical terms why that is impossible, what is the point of arguing against proven mathematics? It is a matter of simple combinatorics.

The 100 blade 70 strength would have
100 blade
x blunt
y hand to hand

The 100 blade 90 strength would have
100 blade
x+a blunt
y+b hand to hand
The values of blunt and hand to hand must be higher since no other skills in the game affects strength.

These two combinations are perfectly possible in Skyrim.

In fact, there is a symmetry between
100 blade
x+a blunt
y+b hand to hand

and

100 blade
x+b blunt
y+a hand to hand

in Oblivion, that is not necessarily present in Skyrim, thus allowing for more combinations.

when skills are still defined by numbers...gotcha, that argument no longer works with me, pan it on someone else

It doesn't work on you because it flew way over your head.

There is no hand to hand in Skyrim and weapon damage based on strength isn't possible either without strength. Your math is pointless if you didnt know what attributes did in the first place. you do understand that strength isn't some middleman for leveling, its its own defined variable for combat.

And thus now your attacking me for what exactly?

I'm not. I never did. I only said you didn't understand what I meant.

These threads would be so much better if everyone typed one line at a time, no paragraphs filled with nothing.

Ah, finally an argument actually addressing my point! =)

Yes, this is absolutely true. You could always get a +1 at any attribute. Therefore you DO lose some resolution.

If you weight skill levels differently (for example, allowing two handed to contribute more to encumbrance than one handed), we could possibly gain more combinations than what we lost from not having the option of increasing strength without increasing skills.

I said Strenght based skills without Strenght, in relation to the previous discussion they were having were strenght raised Carry weight and attack damage, now following that discussion in what rational way does one justify rasing one handed skills = greater carry weight? yes I know you did not say nor was that implied, but I'd like an answer that makes sense.



Being skilled with a weapon does not equate to greater strenght, when you wield a weapon, you learn to handle and manuver it more, this does not mean you can cut someone/thing in half because you are more skilled with it, More damage does not = because Im stronger, it can easily mean I know how, and where to hit something..

so yeah back to my original point based on your bringing up the numbers bit, I take it you mean to say strenght represented as a number is a bad thing, thus I brought up skills, if your implying that strenght is in game independant of skills (because of my earlier point) such is conjecture.


and this whole argument is all based on the assumption that Attributes -Skills relationships can't be something greater improved and vastly different from Previous games :shrug:

This is a lot like now GCD and nGCD for Morrowind and Oblivion work. They still used attributes because that's what the system used, but you could completely ignore the attributes sheet and it would just seem like the skills were increasing damage, health, encumbrance, magicka, etc.

I doubt it's how it'll work in Skyrim, but it's a solid system.

See Omega, that's a big post and I really don't want to read it.

You dont seem to understand that strength effected melee damage, your only addressing encumbrance. There is no more strength, there is no more leveling strength. Apparantly just skill level and perks effect X type damage. That is less variety than having attributes, perks and skill.

Yes, but the strength variable is completely determined by the skill level of strength base skills.

Instead of having strength as a variable, we could replace it directly with the skill level of strength based skills since the relationship is many-to-one.

Please read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_to_one