What determines actions once governed by attributes?

Post » Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:15 am


If you weight skill levels differently (for example, allowing two handed to contribute more to encumbrance than one handed), we could possibly gain more combinations than what we lost from not having the option of increasing strength without increasing skills.


You don't know what will actually be governing carry weight, let alone if it'll be anything as circuitous as going through the two-handed/one-handed skills. If I had to guess, I'd say it's probably governed by 1-5 leveled perks (Carry 10kg more, 20 kg, etc).
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joseluis perez
 
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Post » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:14 am

No they were not redundant, they had two distinct yet interwoven variables and apparently merged them. There's more depth and variety with attributes than without. the only people that found them redundant didnt understand what they represented in the first place.


Play the games?

I don't see them... other than personality governing the initial disposition toward you. A few uses of Speechcraft, and Personality was completely pointless.
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Ruben Bernal
 
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Post » Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:14 pm

You dont seem to understand that strength effected melee damage, your only addressing encumbrance. There is no more strength, there is no more leveling strength. Apparantly just skill level and perks effect X type damage. That is less variety than having attributes, perks and skill.

You can have all of the strength-based skills contribute a percentage of their level to weapon damage with all weapons. I'll let adoring mudcrab do all the fancy x+y stuff.

No he doesn't Roland. He's making a point that attributes are not necessary, even ignoring perks.
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Imy Davies
 
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Post » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:27 am

Yes, but the strength variable is completely determined by the skill level of strength base skills.

Instead of having strength as a variable, we could replace it directly with the skill level of strength based skills since the relationship is many-to-one.

Please read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_to_one

Its not replacing, its cutting it out. There is no replacing that variety. I dont need to read a wiki page to know math.

You can have all of the strength-based skills contribute a percentage of their level to weapon damage with all weapons. I'll let adoring mudcrab do all the fancy x+y stuff.

No he doesn't Roland. He's making a point that attributes are not necessary, even ignoring perks.

Yet all that fancy X-Y stuff, which isn't even relevant since he doesnt know what strength did in the first place, is just more spreadsheety numerical redundancy. Something everybody opposed to attributes is against.
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Chris Cross Cabaret Man
 
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Post » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:07 am

You must be on a mobile or something, then Frodoness.
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nath
 
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Post » Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:55 pm

You must be on a mobile or something, then Frodoness.

Nah, just not really interested in Yet Another Attribute Thread, so I'm sparing myself the trouble of reading and writing paragraphs.
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Budgie
 
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Post » Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:46 pm

This is a lot like now GCD and nGCD for Morrowind and Oblivion work. They still used attributes because that's what the system used, but you could completely ignore the attributes sheet and it would just seem like the skills were increasing damage, health, encumbrance, magicka, etc.

I doubt it's how it'll work in Skyrim, but it's a solid system.

See Omega, that's a big post and I really don't want to read it.


Ah, I kind of guessed that they used that before. =)

Personally, I'm fairly sure they are actually using this system, for a number of reasons.
1. It is the only solution I can think of. Perks are to few to adequately define the character (50 perks max confirmed).
2. The PR talk of "don't need intelligence to determine amount of magic" heard from several different interviews.
3. This would give a system similar to Oblivion without "bothering" the player with the attributes.

But, I guess we have to wait and see to be sure.
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Sxc-Mary
 
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Post » Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:44 pm

.....you saw the title a mile away >_>......why post >_>
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Heather Stewart
 
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Post » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:42 am

Its not replacing, its cutting it out. There is no replacing that variety. I dont need to read a wiki page to know math.


Yet all that fancy X-Y stuff, which isn't even relevant since he doesnt know what strength did in the first place, is just more spreadsheety numerical redundancy. Something everybody opposed to attributes is against.

Firstly.
Okey, no offence intended, but every single post you have made that is directed towards me indicates that you do not understand what I am saying. English is not my native language, so if I have been unclear in any way I am sorry, please tell me where and I will try my best to explain better.

Secondly.
I am a mathematician, I love spread sheets and numbers. =)
I know EXACTLY what strength did and I am in NO WAY opposed to attributes. Quite the opposite! I love complex system that allows for customization and requires the player to actually do math to build their character (something Oblivion certainly did not require).

All I am saying is that mathematically, the new system is not that much different. It may even allow for better customization than in Oblivion I believe. However, the role playing aspect of attributes are lost and that is something that cannot be recovered in the new system.
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Tracey Duncan
 
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Post » Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:05 pm

You can have all of the strength-based skills contribute a percentage of their level to weapon damage with all weapons. I'll let adoring mudcrab do all the fancy x+y stuff.

No he doesn't Roland. He's making a point that attributes are not necessary, even ignoring perks.


Why even bother with that? That just adds an extra layer of complexity... Combat-style skill and specialization perks are and should be the only things that affect weapon damage. the skill not only represents expertise in that combat style, but also the body's conditioning to handle it (Eg: Strength, Agility, and Speed). "Stronger" races (Nord, Redguard, Orc) would have a starting skill bonus to combat-style skills to represent their greater strength

And encumbrance, move speed, and jump height weren't governed solely by the attributes, they also required constants:
Encumberance was STR x5. At level 1 for most races, that would have been 40x5=200. Now, Skyrim has a base encumberance of 200, with races that were generally percieved as "Weaker" having that encumbrance reduced to as low as 150, and "Stronger" having the base encumbrance increased to as much as 300. General perks and Feather spell effects can be used to increase that number, while Burden spell effects and poisons can drop that number. Skill-drain poisons might finally be useful.

There's a similar constant for speed and jump height... Races that were previously "slow" (discounting height's effect on movement speed) would have a lower starting speed that can be increased by perks or "Haste" spell effects. Similar thing for jump height.

I'm not seeing the problem here...
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Kyra
 
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Post » Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:51 am

Firstly.
Okey, no offence intended, but every single post you have made that is directed towards me indicates that you do not understand what I am saying. English is not my native language, so if I have been unclear in any way I am sorry, please tell me where and I will try my best to explain better.

Secondly.
I am a mathematician, I love spread sheets and numbers. =)
I know EXACTLY what strength did and I am in NO WAY opposed to attributes. Quite the opposite! I love complex system that allows for customization and requires the player to actually do math to build their character (something Oblivion certainly did not require).

All I am saying is that mathematically, the new system is not that much different. It may even allow for better customization than in Oblivion I believe. However, the role playing aspect of attributes are lost and that is something that cannot be recovered in the new system.

Yet it cant, unless there are 100 perks based around strength and everything strength did, then it cant.
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Quick Draw III
 
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Post » Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:46 am

Yet it cant, unless there are 100 perks based around strength and everything strength did, then it cant.

But, strength only did 2 things!
Encumberance (Which should take no more than 4 perks that give ~+100 each.), and damage: which shouldn't be covered by perks at all. The weapon-style skills are now broad enough not to require a general damage boost.
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Elisha KIng
 
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Post » Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:30 am

Yet it cant, unless there are 100 perks based around strength and everything strength did, then it cant.


What?

The skill level is a number between 1 and 100, just as strength is.

In fact, if you add the skill level of every skill that would logically depend on strength, you get a number from 3 to 300 (assuming one handed, two handed and smithing relies on strength).

How can this not determine encumbrance and melee damage with greater variation than strength, that is a number between 1 and 100?
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mike
 
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Post » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:37 am

But, strength only did 2 things!
Encumberance (Which should take no more than 4 perks that give ~+100 each.), and damage: which shouldn't be covered by perks at all. The weapon-style skills are now broad enough not to require a general damage boost.

Its about common sense, a stronger person will hit harder than a weaker person. A perkier person will do the same? No. Fact is:

Attributes,skills and perks>just perks and skill.

What?

The skill level is a number between 1 and 100, just as strength is.

In fact, if you add the skill level of every skill that would logically depend on strength, you get a number from 3 to 300 (assuming one handed, two handed and smithing relies on strength).

How can this not determine encumbrance and melee damage with greater variation than strength, that is a number between 1 and 100?

Becasue thats not how it works.
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Sandeep Khatkar
 
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Post » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:02 am

Its about common sense, a stronger person will hit harder than a weaker person. A perkier person will do the same? No. Fact is:

Attributes,skills and perks>just perks and skill.
You are working under the fallacy that there is only one way a person can be physically "Strong"... I prefer the term "Conditioning"

Perks, if anything represent actual expertise in that area, while skill is more like the conditioning to use it.

Some people are built to bear heavy loads, but lack the body mechanics to hit hard. Others can hit hard with one hand, but are too uncoordinated to hit hard a weapon held in both hands (or vice versa). Others have strong limbs capable of dealing punishing blows, but lack the structure to support heavy loads. I know I can lift very heavy loads, but hit like an Airzooka.

However, Skill represents physical conditioning to accomplish the task as much or more than it does raw expertise. And the discrepancy between high skill in one of the two combat styles and low skill in the other can be excused as loss due to inefficiency of using the style.

Someone who has high skill in both One and Two-handed combat can be assumed to be physically stronger than someone with low skill in either, but his encumbrance might be the same because he's conditioned his strength in his arms so he can hit harder, not his back and legs, to carry more junk.

Likewise, someone may have low weapon skills, but have a great encumberance... he can be assumed to have a strong back, but weaker arms.

Skill, from a gameplay stance, represents conditioning as much as it does expertise. Skyrim's more about the end-result when it comes to skills, perks, and attributes, not the little things that add up. You can fill in the blanks yourself.

Mathematically, they used to have Weapon Skill = X, and Attribute = Y. Now we have P=Perk Bonuses

Damage = X + Y. That calculation is constant between Oblivion and Skyrim, as well as Skyrim acquiring the formula:
Damage = S+P

Except, now, Weapon Style = S
S=X+Y-P, where P = Damage - S.

It all ends up being a very, very convoluted way of saying "You can decide how much of your character's demonstrated damage-dealing ability comes from physical fitness, and how much comes from weapon expertise. We don't really care, because you're still hitting just as hard either way"
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Matt Bee
 
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Post » Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:01 pm

I believe someone has in their sig, there's a perk for that one. :spotted owl: merrr.
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Isaac Saetern
 
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Post » Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:24 am

Wow is it just me or are people getting realy cranky?
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Floor Punch
 
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Post » Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:47 am

What governs player speed?


Probably stamina and encumbrance. Maybe addional perks.

What determines carry weight?


Confirmed stamina.

What determines jump height?


Probably stamina and encumbrance.

What determines magical resistance?


Equipped items and perks.

What determines your initial health, fatigue and magicka?


Porbably race.

What determines your damage by ranged weapons?


The ranged weapon :P
And probably the skill level in Archery and addiinal perks.

What determines your dodge and hit rate?


You. Hitting and dodging are determined by your pc skills to press attack or block at the right moment.

What determines the percentage chance you will be knocked down in combat?


Probably stamina. Maybe addinonal perks.
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Christie Mitchell
 
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Post » Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:34 am

I really hope they do away with Carry Weight alltogether, because it's always been such a giant FU for mages, like they just don't deserve to carry all their loot home because they killed the enemies with spells...
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TASTY TRACY
 
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Post » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:36 am

Um carry weight is not confirmed to be stamina based... very little of anything is confirmed to be anything actualy...
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David John Hunter
 
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Post » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:20 am

race
perks
skills
health
stamina
mana

take your pick
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James Hate
 
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Post » Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:37 am

if the question is how will encumberence work it will probably revolve around fatigue
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zoe
 
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Post » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:17 am

-Sprint speed, perks, stamina...

-Weapon skill

-probably perks

-probably perks (but this was always about acrobatics skill rather than attributes anyway)

-perks (attributes hardly did anything in this regard really...)

-Your health, magicka and stamina of course

-Marksmanship skill

-How well you can jump away from enemy blows yourself...

-Perks probably, or the enemy's skill...
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Dona BlackHeart
 
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Post » Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:52 am

What governs player speed?

What determines melee damage?

What determines carry weight?

What determines jump height?

What determines magical resistance?

What determines your initial health, fatigue and magicka?

What determines your damage by ranged weapons?

What determines your dodge and hit rate?

What determines the percentage chance you will be knocked down in combat?

Did they explain this yet?


I envision player speed and jump height to be fixed. Sad and definetely a step backwards but I believe its to better artificially create a feeling of a large world.
By limiting the speed at which you can cross it and putting in barriers you cant ever jump.
I really hope this is not the case, but this is what I think.

Ranged weapon damage should be the ranged skill.

For all of the rest of them I think your best answer is that its either not in the game or 'there will be a perk for that' <- Boy do I now dislike that term, but there you go.
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Blackdrak
 
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Post » Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:50 am

I envision player speed and jump height to be fixed. Sad and definetely a step backwards but I believe its to better artificially create a feeling of a large world.
By limiting the speed at which you can cross it and putting in barriers you cant ever jump.
I really hope this is not the case, but this is what I think.

Ranged weapon damage should be the ranged skill.

For all of the rest of them I think your best answer is that its either not in the game or 'there will be a perk for that' <- Boy do I now dislike that term, but there you go.

I don't think movement speed and jump height will be completely static. In the past games, they've always seemed to understand the desirability of higher movement speeds/better jumping ability, and they're turning the Acrobatics and Athletics skills into perks instead. According to the interview, it seemed they liked Acrobatics and Athletics, but found the traditional advancement method for the skills unacceptably boring: Everyone ran, so you couldn't really choose to make your character "Specialize" in running without taking it as a Major skill, which then caused the game to see your increased movement speed as a cue to send you against stronger enemies.

Same with acrobatics. So, by making movement speed and jump height perks, they allow you to directly choose how much you want to emphasize and improve your character's mobility.
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Racheal Robertson
 
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