There are two things:
1. level scaling
2. story is often boring

I'm aware. I didn't mean in general. It doesn't take an idiot to see Oblivion was marketed better and made more acceptable by a casual audience than Morrowind.

Once again, I have a really, REALLY huge problem with this whole "casual/hardcoe" split people constantly try to make. "Casual" is not interchangeable with "stuff I don't like".

Where do you land? I don't know. I'm an Elder Scrolls fan who prefers Arena's, Daggerfall's, and Oblivion's pacing (I honestly think these three games play at a similar pace with Morrowind just being vastly slower), loves Oblivion more than Morrowind, loves and started playing RPGs with Baldur's Gate II, is a fan of Civilization games since Civilization II, loves Fallout 3, doesn't care much for the original Fallouts, always used to play JRPGs and still wouldn't mind a few more, also used to play racing games with customization options (Need for Speed: Most Wanted is still my favorite), always dreamed of large, open-ended RPG gameworlds full of exploration until I found Oblivion (which realized my dream video game), likes the Assassin's Creed series, and primarily plays, and typically always has played, on a Playstation console with only some minor PC gaming on the side. What am I?

I'd say we're just gamers who happen to specifically enjoy RPGs and I'd also say we are both Bethesda fans. I'm an argumentative person who gets angry when RPG players shun my favorite game and a person who still can't find a person in real life who likes the game. It feels to me that Oblivion is considered too much of an RPG for the people I know in real life and too little of an RPG for people around here. I'm not very picky when it comes to RPGs. It can be as action-packed as Kingdom Hearts or as "old-school" as Baldur's Gate, and I could still easily play and love it, although there are some RPGs I just don't like. What a person is isn't as simple as using arbitrary labels such as "casual" or "hardcoe", and the first person who tells me to go play Call of Duty (in the condescending manner by which that is stated by some RPG players; for the record, I do not like Call of Duty, or the FPS genre, at all) becomes the target of my relentless anger. I'm weird in that I love Elder Scrolls games more "old-school" than Morrowind and I love Oblivion, but draw connections between these two groups that I find to be more plentiful than connections to Morrowind. I'm happy with the pacing of the really "old-school" ones and the newest "hack-and-slash" one, but Morrowind's pacing doesn't work for me. The terms "casual" and "hardcoe" mean nothing, and use of such terms both anger me and don't seem to describe much of what I, or many others, are.

Sorry you feel that way. And I like Oblivion just fine. I just think "casual" is the best way I can describe it, it has nothing to do with my taste for your information.

Oh and whatever happened to the I like every Elder Scrolls game attitude Seti? All I see you do anymore is refuse to believe Morrowind had any redeeming factors? I guess things have changed.

Nothing.

What do I dislike about the series?

I can't take it seriously. I've only played Morrowind and Oblivion, but that's half of the series. At first this really bothered me, but now I've grown to embrace it. Between the character models/animation, the voice acting, and some of the wonky systems I'll go into below, I've grown to see the series as a comedy. It's to the point that I was disappointed that some of the voice actors toned themselves down in Fallout 3.

For specific games:

Morrowind:

• The joke of a combat system
  
• Cliff racers
  
• Being unable to keep track of goals easily
  
• Long travel times
  
• How buggy it is
  
• Been too long to remember anything else...

Oblivion:

• The repetitive world and bland dungeons
  
• The level scaling
  
• The optimal way to level being completely contrary to logic
  
• Instanced towns/interiors
  
• How buggy it is
  
• Been too long to remember more...

I'm not afraid to say what I hate because I want Bethesda to know so that they can improve upon/fix these things for Skyrim. They've hooked me as a fan despite these issues, and I want to see the series grow.

I just complimented the pacing of 3 out of 4 Elder Scrolls games as being good for me and I never said I didn't like Morrowind. I hate the pacing. That's what I believe Morrowind's worst aspect is, just like I believe repetitive blandness is Arena's and Daggerfall's worst aspect and just as I believe level-scaling is Oblivion's worst aspect.

A simple "I don't hate Morrowind" would have sufficed. The wordiness and almost talking-down-on-me approach was not necessary. That reminds me, why am I in this forum?

Nothing was wrong with Morrowind - maybe the combat in the vanilla game was a bit sketchy, but combat has never been a strong point of TES. What I hated about Oblivion? Pretty much everything except the nice graphics.

It also doesn't really have much to do with the term "casual". To be perfectly blunt, casual gamers (if that word has ANY meaning anymore) don't play RPGs in general. At all. Ever.


How is it that you complain about how someone else giving a comprehensive response to a direct criticism of them as "talking down on you", but then make a statement that implies that this entire forum is below your being here?


See my last post. The list is probably two or three times as long if we start looking at Morrowind specifically - the game had some gigantic, glaring flaws. Some people are just much, much more willing to put up with them than others.

I've had this very same argument on this forum many times, it's worthless to argue my point anymore. I like Morrowind more than Oblivion, I think Oblivion is a dumbed down mess. Sue me.

Good day sir. :wavey:

Sir-Stabs-A-Lot-- Don't be surprised when you show up, guns blazing, accusations of "Oblivion fanboyism" falling fast and thick from your lips, and be surprised that nobody agrees with you. You, sir, are a provocateur, and a rather brazen one at that.

As for me, my grievances with the series are well-documented. I don't feel the need to rehash them, I try not to dwell on the negative aspects of things I like

There are plenty of little niggling things that I dislike, but what I took the most issue with was Oblivion's "level endurance NOW or you're screwed!" health system.

Well aware, and I can sympathize with them, even though I've never seriously sat down and played DF, or even recall seeing Arena. I'd like to see some of that lost content and diversity, along with the political undertones and meaningful decisions, return to the series.

FT was a requirement in a game which was several orders of magnitude larger, and it had "consequences" for using it. MW's "public transportation systems" approach was far from the perfect solution, mainly in how you were the only passenger and there was no "schedule", but it worked well enough in that situation that I can't really gripe about it. The various other forms of teleportation (Guild Guides, Mark and Recall, Interventions, Propylon Indicies) allowed you to circumvent a lot of the difficulties once you learned your way around and figured out the tricks to it. They were just FT with a fancy wrapper, but the wrapper made them palatable, at least in my opinion. My issues with OB's FT weren't that it was present, but that it was nakedly exposed for what it was. Besides, there was no reason NOT to use it, and a lot of reasons why it was impractical to do otherwise, such as not being given directions better than "a ways North of here", which narrowed your search to only 1/4 of the map. It was far more "immersion breaking" not to have carriages, merchant caravans, boats on the rivers, or other forms of transportation (aside from a couple of permanently docked galleons) present in the game at all, especially at the very heart of a vast empire. There was no alternative to FT other than walking (horses were a welcome addition, but often proved to be even slower than walking), and even that was made difficult by the poor quest directions and scattered quest locations, which were made under the assumption that you would "of course" use FT.

As for your other reply, I'm here because I don't want to see the next TES game end up farther down that same road which OB took, where the RP aspects are still there, but have been stripped of most of their relevance to anything in the game. There are enough FPS titles out there already, and TES is about the only serious open-world RPG left. I don't intend to give it up without a fight.

FYI, I LIKED the original FO game, but feel that Bethesda made the right move in updating it to a FP perspective game, fixing the clunky and obsolete interface, and making it a bit easier to deal with than "reload after every other encounter". I didn't like what they did to choices and consequences, though, because there were very few of the latter. No matter what, you got rewarded. Even blowing up a town just resulted in the most "critical" NPC being converted into a ghoul and reappearing in a new place, and any negative feelings caused by the deed could be "washed away" with a little water handed out to beggars, or other simple workarounds. When your actions have no consequences, that's not a GAME, in my opinion. Like OB, the graphics and landscape techniques were far better, there were some excellent quests mixed in, and there was potential for major improvements, but the SOUL of the game was lacking.

So, what I really hate about TES, if anything about it can be "hated", is that it attempts to cater to two very diverse markets, and is steadily leaning more and more toward the one I care the least about.

I was never a huge fan of the Oblivion plane. I love the world as it is, Oblivion makes it look yuk. Though I do still highly enjoy the game. I also hate Oblivions fast travel. Once you know its there your always going to use it and you miss so much. Skyrim should have something like the Morrowind. Well I am hoping.

Needs more cowbell. That's my only complaint.

There's people that agree with me. They just weren't online at that point. I've seen enough polls to know this small forum sample has a majority of Morrowind fans. Thats good enough for me. And for the last damn time, its Sir-Stabs-Alot, as in, not grammatically correct.

Oblivion is like playing a game of chess where all the pieces are queens. Melee and marksmanship are pretty much worthless at high levels on the harder difficulties so EVERY character ends up using summoning, illusion, and/or alchemy as they are the 3 skills that can effect any encounter. I do not see how combat is not related to role-playing... maybe to someone who does not like to stylize their attacks to fit a personality type. Am I tactical dueler using superior wit and planning or a battering ram that relies on conditioning and overpowering attacks.... every melee attack with every weapon is the same. in Oblivion The side quests were often fun, but level scaling kind of messed them up. I do not mind quests that are obviously geared toward introductory level characters to be easy for someone who leveled up. Make the Guilds have agendas that clash so you have to choose how to proceed with your allegiances. Being part of the Dark Brotherhood should block you from every other guild, because you should want to keep a low profile...not be the center of everyone's attention. The thieves' guild could partner up with he Blackwood Company so you will have to make a choice to stick with Fighter's guild or become a thief or the other way around. The Mage's guild should require the character to become proficient in some form of arcane arts, but they might be neutral as to members associating with other guilds. Things like that would make sense and allow you to give your character some personality. If you can become the leader of all the guilds there should be tons of people out to get you and you would have to fight off disgruntled associates of the guilds, assassins or thugs hired by ambitious guild members, and such amplified by the number of guilds you advance in. At some point it would become totally impractical to deal with everything at once unless you do not mind constantly fighting off people wherever you travel.


I know that Oblivion came out in the toddler stages of modern game combat systems.... and I hope Skyrim reflects the change in times. I am one of the people who think that a role-playing game means overcoming limitations using a character's strengths rather than removing any limitations so there is no weakness. The latter leads to a lack of critical thinking and I end up playing mindlessly. Having to force myself to limit what I do is complete impractical, because well... do people purposefully limit themselves in reality? I sure hope not! Some of my greatest experiences in RPG gaming were in successfully executing strategies in situations where my character is at a disadvantage..... with no disadvantage there is no point in combat and they should just eliminate that aspect, thus making the game another King's Quest or something like that. Combat does not matter, remove it from the game...simple solution to please everyone. I could then focus on other forms of role-playing in such a game instead of a game that is only half realized.

That is just my 2 septims.


PS: I never played any Elder Scroll games before Oblivion: GotY Edition so feel free to jump on me for that, but I could not stand 1st person RPGs up to that point because combat seemed so rudimentary and bland. I could at least somewhat tolerate Oblivion combat.

The community. Inbetween the obsession with six and anime on the modding front and the petty, hypocritical, self-entitled holier-than-thou elitist sperglords who dedicate themselves to waging crusade in the name of Allmighty Morrowind, it's more or less a complete joke to the rest of the internet. Only reason I'm even here is the faint hope that I can get some kind of a tabletop shindig on, and half the time I'm tempted to just burn everything I've done related to it out of disgust.

There's people that do that for Oblivion too. Shocking huh?

Because we all know the internet is the world's highest standard of measure. :meh:

I don't think you'd actually see too many people agreeing with you. Not because you prefer Morrowind, but because your way of going about saying that it's better consists mainly of demeaning people who are fans of Oblivion and talking about the game in vague terms that don't actually offer any specific reasons as to WHY it's worse but instead imply that those who enjoy it are below you (saying that it's made for "casuals" implies that people who enjoy it are like some lower class of gamer compared to those who like Morrowind, and claiming that it's "dumbed down" has an implication that it's aimed at and enjoyed by people of lesser intelligence). Now, that's not exactly uncommon (especially when it comes to the whole Morrowind v. Oblivion argument), but when you actually complain that someone seems to be talking down to you simply because they give a full explanation of themselves in response to a condescending remark on your part and then go on to act as though this entire forum, Oblivion, and Oblivion's fans are all in several ways below you IN THE SAME THREAD... that's just astoundingly hypocritical, and I can't help but point that out.

You'd certainly be able to find people who agree with you that Morrowind is better than Oblivion, especially on this forum. I think you'd have a hard time finding people specifically trying to associate themselves with you here given how you're carrying yourself.


Speaking as somewhat of an outside observer (given that I don't like either of those games)... no, actually, I don't think that's really true. Waging a crusade implies that you're on the offensive. The Morrowind fanbase certainly is when it comes to comparing the games - the focus by them seems to almost invariably be why Oblivion is bad, what it does wrong, and why it doesn't count under some term that they've defined more or less arbitrarily. The Oblivion fanbase, on the other hand, is almost always on the defensive - the focus on their end is why Oblivion isn't bad, why those things either weren't wrong or why their being wrong doesn't matter (see: "you don't have to use it"), and why it does count under some term for which they've taken on a different, but similarly arbitrary, definition. Long story short: one of the two fanbases is quite a bit more aggressive in attacking the game they don't prefer than the other, and it's not the Oblivion fanbase.

As for all the rest of the comments in Sorenson's rant... well, I'm not going to comment on "petty" or "hypocritical" and definitely won't be touching "sperglords", but as far as holier-than-thou elitism goes I really don't think there's any arguing that that's definitely a trait only one side of the debate really shows. I don't see a lot of Oblivion fans telling Morrowind fans that they're casual, that the game they enjoy had to be made simpler so that they'd be able to understand it, or that they're children.

I do not know about anyone else, but I have supported the boat and strider operators and their families for a long time. The "meager sums" as you put it would have put all their children through the Arcane University.

I also hated "Cliff hangers", and level scaling. But I suppose most of the cliff racers are dead now. Does anyone else feel Morrowinds stock just went up? Despite an erupting volcano and hordes of Argonians...

The reason that the Morrowind fanbase is likely to be "on the offensive" while the Oblivion fanbase is "on the defensive" is simply because Oblivion is the next, and currently most recent, iteration of the series.

A lot of people who loved Morrowind, I'm one of them, saw some of the things that made that game so special to them dragged out and executed in Oblivion.

I was able to get really immersed in Morrowind. It was a new UNIQUE environment with unique factions and characters and history. If I wanted to travel around I had to figure out how best to do so. Long walks, figuring out silt strider routes, figuring out boat routes.

In Oblivion (IMO) the environment was generic fantasy, the factions were generic fantasy, the characters and history were often generic fantasy. There was no special travel method there was only magical teleporting.

And of course everything levelled with you.

Wait a while until Skyrim comes out, you'll get plenty of Oblivion fans acting the same way Morrowind fans acted when Oblivion came out....and if the simplification trend continues you'll either have plenty of Morrowind fans complaining or see an exodus of them.