I personally hated the cliff hangers. Because then you have that stupid music running in the background and you're like dude where is the monster already? And you get chased for 15 minutes to find out its a stupid cliff hanger. Who is [censored] around.

The females looked ugly as hell.

Oblivion's UI, level scaling, fast travel and quest markers. D:

Fast Travel and Level Scaling

How could you possibly dislike an optional feature..you weren't forced to use fast travel.

Conjurers that run around like chickens with their heads cut off in combat. Really the magic system as a whole, especially when trying to aim a fireball at said conjurer moving at the speed of light in random directions.

Level scaling.

I hate cliff hangers too, but I guess you meant cliff racers...

I hate the Speechcraft mini-game.

I hate how every man, mer, and monster in the game can be defeated by a combination of back-pedaling and jumping while doing any ranged attack. AI in Oblivion consisted of "if monster sees you, it bullrushes you". Very unsatisfying. This combined with level scaling ensured that throughout the game there is never a true challenge.

As far as the recent entries in the series go, very nearly everything to be perfectly honest. The models and textures are often poor at best (I'd even go as far as to say lazy for a lot of what I've seen in Oblivion), the animations are hilariously bad, and the other visual effects tend to be rather poorly handled. The combat ranges from being unforgivably bad and outright mechanical to being a bit of a joke, the plots are loaded with gigantic and blatant cliches, the writing is mediocre outside of the books (and that's being generous), the music has no real emotion or feeling to it, the NPCs always seem extremely stiff (whether they're following mechanical schedules or just standing in place), the voice acting is mostly wooden garbage, the stealth elements are generally laughable (huge bonus points to Oblivion for this being competent there, though), the other aspects of the gameplay usually feel like they've had no real effort put into them (going from Morrowind to Oblivion, we went from lockpicking consisting of stabbing a lock with a pick to lockpicking consisting of a minigame that isn't even remotely believable as actually having any relation to picking a lock), even as far as size they feel tiny compared to a fairly large number of more recent open-world games, they don't offer as much to do as a lot of other games despite being built around the amount of content they offer, and overall their worlds feel a bit like dead, empty husks.

I stick with the series because I can tell that they're actually trying to make significant improvements with every game even when doing so carries a fairly significant risk and that gains them a great deal of respect in my books (mainly because outside of Bethesda, the only company that really does that is... uh... none that I can really think of), not because I feel like they've done an especially good job so far.

The movement speed of things (including yourself) as you get farther into the game. Everything was blazing around faster than any FPS and combined with melee combat and slow moving spells it was pretty frustrating at times. I only played Oblivion though, so I do not know how the other games handled it. And I don't really like the idea of being able to bounce 20 feet in the air while wearing heavy armor....really killed my immersion when I got my skills up to high levels. As much as I like NPC's wandering around and having their own lives the combat AI needs work..... I can not tell you how many guards and friendly NPCs I accidentally killed as they ran directly in front of my power attacks for NO reason and they would chase things that fall off cliffs or dive into lava..... they need some sense of self preservation. That is all I can think of in a moment's notice.

how is that not even remotely believable, have you ever seen how a lock is picked? while it is true that the tumblers will not be all at the same level it is still a pretty good representation

The fact that it includes tumblers doesn't make it believable. Really, it doesn't. It looks more like a funny caricature of lockpicking made by someone completely unfamiliar with actually picking locks than any sort of actual lockpicking.

It's not optional. How can you walk so long?

In morrowind fast travel was ok, because it made sense, silt strider, boats, various kind of teleportation. It didnt break immersiveness

How so? I can buy my character wandering a bit without my guidance for a while over my character being transported a bit without my guidance for a pathetic payment that makes no sense. I feel the sorry for the poor person that has to transport people on their siltstrider every day of their lives for a meager sum that wouldn't be able to realistically support a person's living, but that's just me.

Personally, I hate Morrowind and Oblivion's attribute multiplying leveling system, Daggerfall's overly large and maze-like dungeons, Arena and Daggerfall's overly non detailed terrain, Morrowind's fast-travel system, Morrowind's running speed, cliffracers, the joke that became the Bosmer, unique item-scaling in Oblivion, certain forms of enemy-scaling in Oblivion, Arena and Morrowind's lack of buyable houses, Morrowind's puny, well-lighted, and cheerful music playing dungeons, glitches/bugs, Morrowind's "cast with hands out only" magic system, lack of magicka regain in Arena, Daggerfall, and Morrowind, Morrowind's combat/stealth systems, and Arena's, Morrowind's, and Oblivion's complete lack of cloaks.

At first, I was about to say "There's nothing I HATE", but then I remembered the Cliff Racers from Morrowind and the level scaling from Oblivion :swear:

The difference is that one of the two is integrated into the game world. As a general rule, making the gameplay systems an actual part of the game world almost always helps to bring the player into the game, with a few obvious exceptions. Talking to someone and paying them a bit of coin to bring you somewhere just does a little more to suspend disbelief than pausing the game, going to the in-game map, and then selecting and confirming a destination in that map.

EDIT: This forum has 60 second flood control and yet can't stop double posts from happening within about one second of each other... amazing.

I hate the extremities of the opinions about it. On the one hand, you have the "old school RPG" players who hate the direction the game is going, and on the other hand you have the Hack&Slash junkies who are annoyed with how "RP" keeps getting in the way of the next fight. A lot of the first group HATE how fast travel and a quest compass have become all but unavoidable; a lot of the second group wouldn't play without them.

I compare it to those who like a good book and those who like the movie based on the book. Either that, or one group who prefers cake and another group that prefers icing, comparing two cakes: one with tasteless and slightly bitter icing over a rich and moist cake, versus sweet, tasty, and colorful icing on a tasteless lump of dry and stale cake.

...for a ridiculous fee and a loading screen that skips the journey none-the-less, makes getting around tedious (I loathe merely coming back to my house to drop off loot in Morrowind), and does nothing for me but waste my time

That's just my point of view, but I adamantly despise that game mechanic.

The fee was low because the implication was supposed to be that you weren't the only passenger on the strider, and that they moved about on a schedule. Bethesda just didn't really put the effort into making them actually feel all that much like they worked that way (because... well, see my last post, this is something they tend to do with a lot of things in their games). And the point isn't really that either of them is ideal, only that a solution that's integrated into the game's world is going to be less jarring for suspension of disbelief than one that isn't so long as it isn't extremely cumbersome (not cumbersome like "I need to find the guy to pay", cumbersome like the new Alone in the Dark's inventory system).

I honestly don't like either system (Oblivion's fast travel system kind of killed the point of a lot of exploration and felt unnecessary given the small size of the world, and Morrowind's just sort of svcked in general), but they do still both have benefits and one of the benefits of Morrowind's approach is that it aids with immersion. Not a lot, but at least a little.

1. The "old-school" RPG players, as you refer to them, were Arena/Daggerfall fans who picked on Morrowind before any Morrowind fans picked on Oblivion, and Arena and Daggerfall had fast-travel systems more akin to Oblivion's than Morrowind's.

2. Your anology is crap, in my opinion. For an example, I far prefer Oblivion's side quests than Morrowind's. They always seemed meatier and more diverse. Also, considering Oblivion's been out for nearly five years now and definitely isn't close to having the best "icing" out there, I'm not even sure what yoyu are referring to. If I wanted icing, I'd be playing Crysis or God of War. No RPG that consumed several hundred hours of one's life, took four years to make, and is unique among this entire console generation is a "tasteless lump of dry and stale cake". If you personally believe it, than, as mandated by traditional "old-school" RPG standards, I'm inclined to tell you to go play Call of Duty because Oblivion is a large and full single-player experience rather than a multiplayer, blood, gore, and explosions filled one. If you honestly believe your claim about Oblivion, then what the hell are you doing on these forums and how the hell can you love Morrowind as much as you do?

Can't remember about Morrowind (haven't played it in years).... But in Oblivion (and I guess this is more relevant since it is the latest installment of the series): questcompass, levelscaling, dumbed down and almost nonexistent RPG mechanics, minigames (especially the speech piechart), one dimensional and repetitive quests and character (mostly), uninteresting story, lazy fasttravel, dull and challengeless combat (block, hit, hit, block, hit, hit - shoot/cast, sidestep, shoot/cast, sidestep ...), ability to be and do everything in one go (head of all guilds for example), lack of choices and consequences, and skillprogression (I don't like the learn by doing method - not when it lacks any complexity and limitations).

I just had to come back here even though I promised my sanity I wouldn't just to say. A lot more people dislike Oblivion than people dislike Morrowind. Just stop with the Oblivion fanboyism and you will be a lot happier. After New Vegas came out, I finally found my hatred of Oblivion and FO3 just disappearing and I enjoy all the games a lot more.

Just tossing some advice your way.

As for what I hate, my indescribable urge to keep updating my mods for Morrowind and Oblivion when I don't even play them anymore, rather than waiting till I play again to update.

Worth noting, actually, that Arena specifically required that you use that fast travel system to get anywhere (I've tried walking from town to town, and after something like half an hour of walking in a straight line the whole world starts breaking down and glitching out, and you end up outside of some half-rendered walls that lead you back into the town you left from), and walking even many of the shorter town-to-town distances in Daggerfall took longer than walking across the entirety of Morrowind's map the long way (meaning you were more or less required to use the fast travel system there as well, something that doesn't really apply in Oblivion where it's entirely practical to walk from A to B). Besides that, "old-school" RPGs in general used systems like fast travel a lot. Often with random encounters and things sprinkled in, but still similar systems.


Probably because they are. Notice how in my massive post criticizing nearly every aspect of this series, I didn't once mention quest design. That's because that's something they've been significantly improving over time. Quests in Morrowind literally all consist of going somewhere, getting something, killing something, or some mixture of the three. Not those with some elaboration that I've simplified. That's it. You go to a standard-looking cut-and-paste dungeon alone. You pick something up there. You bring it back. You go to another town. You go to a store. You get a thing. You bring it to someone. You go to another dungeon. You kill a guy. You... get the idea. Oblivion still had those, but it would mix things up a little. You'd be rushing into a place with a small army of NPCs at your side. You'd be going to assassinate someone in their bed, with bonus points if you can make it look like an accident. Yes, you're still doing those same basic quest archetypes, but they started putting little twists on them, little extra features that made them feel a little different. Nothing in Morrowind ever did that, with the exception of some (actually probably most) of the stuff in Bloodmoon.

But... eh, enough about that. The whole thing is kind of a ridiculous way of dividing things anyways. I grew up with stuff like Wizardry and Ultima and still love and play games like Realms of Arkania and Darklands, and I'd vastly prefer Oblivion over Morrowind. I like fast travel and don't mind the compass, even if I don't think bethesda's done a particularly good job implementing either. I still have no problem playing without either.

So tell me... where on that whole split do I land anyways? Am I not an old-school RPG player because I like being able to get where I want to be faster, despite actually being someone who plays old-school RPGs? Am I not a hack-and-slash junkie despite vastly preferring a more action-based combat system like Oblivion's over Morrowind's "you clearly hit but actually you didn't because the game said so" style of fighting?

EDIT:
A lot more people dislike Oblivion than people dislike Morrowind here. Specifically here. Definitely not in general.