Uh, no, not really actually. If you think Oblivion isn't a dumbed down Morrowind you obviously haven't played both games. And what you said doesn't make any sense haha. Oblivion is obviously more kid friendly, what with all the hand holding and all.

I edited my post to fix that issue, and no, Oblivion isn't more kid friendly. It's just more friendly. A little simplification isn't "OMG, teh end of teh worldz". Things don't need to be unnecessarily complex just for the sake of being unnecessarily complex.

That's not what I was referring to.
What doesn't make sense is that you think Oblivion isn't a dumbed down Morrowind. It is in almost every way.

It doesn't matter if that's not what you're referring to. It's what came before, and it is relevant, because certain Morrowind fans filled those shoes, in a hypocritical manner.

What doesn't make sense if the constant berating of Oblivion and its fans(8 year olds, was it?) by fans of the most similar game to it in existence on the official forums for the series, and it didn't make sense before with the Daggerfall-Morrowind transition, either.

As far as your first two sentences in that post go, I don't even know what you're talking about, at all. I mean, I literally don't even know how to respond to that, because it's not a response to anything I said, it doesn't make sense. It came before, it's relevant? Filling shoes? What? Stop speaking in prophetic context and spit it out.

And people berate Oblivion because it needs to be done. You think I'm alone in this battle against Oblivion haha? Hardly. A lot of people think the way I do, and a lot of people realize that Oblivion isn't the game it's cracked up to be.
And yes, 8 year old. My 8 year old cousin plays Oblivion and he's damned good at it. What's that tell you?

You should see my dad play oblivion. As hes trying to press attack as fast as he can and the view goes wild and he condtantly misses and ends up steering at the floor. He doesnt know how to block either. Strangely enough he can take down ogres like this and never blocks.

??Interesting??
Orc?

I dislike that the stealth is still binary in Oblivion. The AI is either totally aware or your presence or totally oblivious to you. It's black-and-white, no shades of grey. For the stalth to be truly satisfying, the AI needs more levels of awareness. Guards should be able to get suspicious if they hear something, and then go and investigate ("Did you hear that?" *goes to look around*), etc. It would make RP'ing a thief or assassin infinitely more enjoyable.

My sig kind of says it all....

What he's saying is that prior to Oblivion's release, literally the exact kind of comments you're making about Oblivion compared to Morrowind were made about Morrowind compared to Daggerfall. Because it's true that Oblivion is less complex than Morrowind, and it's true that Morrowind is less complex than Daggerfall, but neither game is terrible, they're just more accessible than earlier entries. Neither game deserves even a third of the crap it gets.

There are easy workarounds for the quest arrow and compass (set the active quest to Nirnroot hunting for best results), and as for fast travel, it's easy to self-impose restrictions on it (only fast travel from town to town, only fast travel when you're on your horse, only fast travel to places you've already visited, etc.). So the handholding is something you consciously allow to take place.

I'm a mature, intelligent gamer now, and I enjoy Morrowind and Oblivion. What does that tell you?

It tells me that you're intelligent? It takes an intelligent person to understand something difficult, but it doesn't take an intelligent person to understand something simple.
So you enjoying Oblivion isn't the issue. I know a lot of people enjoy it. I enjoyed it too, the first playthrough. That doesn't mean it's not everything I've said it is. Dumbed down, catered to casuals/kids, and mainstreamed. And it is.

“The moment we want to believe something, we suddenly see all the arguments for it, and become blind to the arguments against it.”

-George Bernard Shaw

Well the same thing will happen with TES V. Oblivion fans will be nocking down TES V. They will say it's a great game but not as good as Oblivion. Oh wait, I guess the game has to come out first for that to happen. LOL.

What Oblivion fans forget is that Morrowind took alot of flack. But if you were not around 8 years ago, they wouldn't know.

Just goes to show you how were are so pationate about TES. WE wouldn't be debatting if we didn't love the games so much. :fallout: (wish there was a TES sing to hug.)

Deadly Shadows monologues, the town guards.

I agree OB was mainstreamed but I think you can only REALLY enjoy it if you're an "above the average gamer". A friend of mine bought OB GOTY this year and he likes but that's it and he's a true gamer as well but more into the whole FPS kind o'way. I loved OB so much I didn't buy yanother game during an entire year :hehe:

But basically I think beth attracts more player with Fallout series because it has guns so I hope they make TES V more like MW so that the true fans, us, enjoy it like a TES game should be enjoyed :celebrate:

1:A
2:AbC
3:ABcDEfg
4:cdEfGHi
5:ABcDEFGHIJkLmNoPqR

a little riddle for you

I'm not good at riddles :brokencomputer:

Is that the amount of content the games have, so 5 being TES V should have the most content ?

It is not a riddle. It is not a matter of 3<4<5. There needs to be more notes and they need to be capitalized, including previous ones. I don't think newly added additions helped Oblivion to pass that certain threshold because it was lacking much more important things. With a little bit more content and development time Oblivion could have survived from the symptom described in this thread.

I don't think what happened during the transition from Daggerfall to Morrowind and Morrowind to Oblivion needs to happen again, if they keep everything previous and develop them to perfection and add more even if new additions aren't that perfect.

We need a game that lives up to hype and a little more, I guess. DNF will be a nice lesson on that.

PS. Long story short, clashing two games isn't really helping. We should take the key points:

RPG failing mechanics
Luck
physics integration
leveling system
Separate UI design for multiple platforms
Customization
Voice acting
text dialog
Stealth
AI
unique content
random encounters
Vertical environment designs
Traveling services
Magic
Fighting
Underwater above water environment
Mounts
.
.
.

and turn them into something better than Morrowind and Oblivion combined!

Yeah morrowind was worse (in this respect). It does not feel alive when I see the same npc stand in one spot for the whole game. I don't want everything to be so static.

Of coarse not..that wasn't my point..at all..
Oblivion was better in that single regard, sure, NPC's having scripted paths go about and walk around. But again, that wasn't my point at all.

I think no one does. In addition we would like to see seasonal changes too, right? And holidays? Tax collectors? Vacations?

Morrowind was under quarantine. What was Oblivion's excuse? I think next game should utilize some recruit system, spares and reserves. It should fix the essential NPC issue. If one NPC dies, assign the quest to his successor. Also instead of leveling list, replenish bandits with inter province schedules. Also creature spawning can be assign to birth rates based on an ecological system.

Could we stop with the intelligence assumptions, Morrowind is not rocket science, it requires the ability to read, and luck. In fact it is insulting to insinuate that kids wont be able to play morrowind, most of the hardcoe morrowind fans started playing it as preteens. I have a friend who is flying through a robotics Engineering education with straight A's, he plays guitar hero and liked fable 2, but he felt Oblivion was "a little too overwhelming for him", I think that shoots the intelligence argument to the ground, and also the casual argument. My Oblivion copy has an +16 rating, I take that as a non-kid catering game, I also play Morrowind more casually than Oblivion.

Oblivion was supposed to be rated "M" (whatever that is), so this argument is out the window.

And can you please just admit that Oblivion is catered to the casual player? Even Bethesa recognise that it is... Seriously, some of you guys can't take a hit to Oblivion, no matter how well deserved it is...

Actually that enhances my argument, M stands for Mature and is associated with a age rating of 18+.



But it isn't, casual players are people who do not play games as a main hobby, it is associated with flashgames and facebook games. There's nothing in Oblivion which caters to these people. These people would not even get past character customization.

You can finish Arena in one day with a lvl 1 character. The whole process seems to be designed carefully to let this to happen. I think other lengthy questlines are the similar length and difficulty. If not I would be pretty disappointed with the difficulty of Arena quest-line(I am already.). I think there is something wrong with that.

Although I wouldn't say facebook/flashgames crowd can't pass the chargen. I mean come on. But I think what others are talking about with casual gamers are thinking those who like/play(and don't disturbed by) dumbed down versions of established PC games. (which appears on consoles mostly. It is not consoles' fault though.)

My motto: Don't blame the player, blame the game. Don't blame the game, blame the devs. Don't blame the devs, blame the publishers/shareholders.

It's not that the meat of these games are all that overwhelming. It's that, before you really learn your way around the world, it can appear to be very endless and overwhelming.

If you're the type of person who views video games as a way to blow off steam for an hour after work, you're gonna exit the opening dungeon in Olivion, look around, and think, "I just don't have the time to invest in this."

Casual gamers are used to a 10-minute, linear level, followed by loading screen then an option to play the next level or quit for the day. A game that keeps going and going is going to appear overwhelming just because of what people are used to, not because of anything really concrete.

Some people see videos as a way to not be bored for an hour or a way to compete with friends at a party. Some people view them as a hobby, something to plant yourself in front of an progress in all day on a rainy Sunday.

That's why I keep saying Bethesda has to stop trying to please two polar opposite audiences at once in one "compromise" game. I swear, if I see another interview in which Todd Howard uses the term "compromise," I'm gonna set my copy of Oblivion on fire and leave it at his doorstep (and also put dog poo in it).

P.S. I know some people enjoy more than one genre of game... but I think those people would rather have one of each, instead of half and half, crammed into one "compromise"