Hi,
I'm new to the forums, and i figured i should contribute somehow

So here is what i didn't like in the announcements so far, and (to contribute) what i believe should be done, probably in the next games because it's too late for this one.


1 - Skyrim feels like a expansion of oblivion and not a new game
I can't help but feel that we are using Oblivion as a base, using a different area (Nordic this time), adding Dragons and hope that makes a success story. I know there appear to be other changes i know, but none of them are too significant that you would go like, "wow, now that's something new". Of course it's still early and we know little about the game, but this is my opnion so far and i honestly hope it changes. I've liked that dragons change the environment when they fall, leaving a trail for example, but if you read the fan interview, that is usually limited. They are not going to fall on a city on on top of a building unless it was scripted on a specific case. I honestly don't care if that was an area where there were quests, it would be awesome if everyone got their houses destroyed and the NPC were in the streets instead of their homes. I prefer this dynamism even if you loose quests for example. Of course this is all too difficult to develop so we are probably just going to see these changes in controlled scenarios. Note for the future: randomness and world impact is a plus not a minus.

2 - Item variations seem little
Still related with the previous point, recent announcements said that the armor and weapons have been redesigned to hav ea nordic style but little else. I would love to see new things, such as offhand weapons like powerful books, or artifacts you can hold for power, different weapons like morning stars, fails, crossbows, halberds etc. Even if they do the same as swords and bows they LOOK different, for some people variety makes a world's difference. I liked the epic / rare weapons announcement for example. More of that would be nice.

3 - Character choice plays little influence in the world and story
From what has been answered in interviews they are saying that your race / faction / morality / genre has an impact in some quests but it's not that significant. I would like to see a HEAVY influence. I remember the icewind dale game where playing a Dark Elf was DAMN HARD! because most of the encounters you had in the world always showed you how must distrust was in that particular race. Here i totally disagree with what has been said. I would prefer to see a game where some parts are blocked (cities where i'm not welcomed, where prices are higher) and quests i can't do, then to see a world where it doesn't matter if i'm going into a human-only city, and even being the only reptile everyone is unsurprised and greets me like everyone else. Changes in environment and NPCs are welcomed in my opinion. I would love to see a mob running after my Khajiit because Khajiit are usually thieves and someone stole something...

4 - More environment interactivity
I would love to see how the objects around me can be used in a fight for example. For example if an enemy drives his sword through a tree it get's stuck, if you try to fire a bow in the water it won't work, i could use a fireball to burn a tree to fall on top of someone, use telekinesis to send rocks at enemies etc. I guess these are probably not very good examples, but my point is that sword play and magic are getting old in games, it's time to re-invent it and make it more real. I would love to see some aspects of that in Elder Scrolls games.

5 - Companions more complex
Having companions could be much more complex and that's something i would like to see as well, assuming they already have their own quests and personality, and that you could decide what items you would give them (fallout 3 mode) we could evolve that and make them more active. I'm tired of seeing a guy that follows you everywhere and never reacts to what you do. I would love to see him starting a conversation before you do or getting angry at someone. He could lead in some quests and you are the companion that would be nice as well.

6 - More different environments
From what as been said i'm afraid that most cities will look Nordic which would be very very bad. I still remember when in Morrowind you would get to a new area and the buildings were so different architecturally that you would spend a long time just looking a roofs and walls of houses that looked like giant mushrooms instead of actually playing. That was really nice! There was an expectation to reaching a new area, reaching a new city, you never knew what culture you would find there. Even if you have snow and forest areas it's definitely not the same. It takes a lot of development effort to make those models and textures and everything but in the end i believe diversity pays off.

In conclusion i believe the game should have more dynamic mechanics and more variables so that it appears to be an actual evolution of the elder scrolls games and not just another Oblivion spin off (like fallout was).

Let me know what you feel about these points and what you would like to see new or improved in Skyrim.

I take it you played the game

Nice, start off with a :grumpy: like we don't have enough of that going around already.

I like what you said about the dragons and the racism thing, totally agree, but it wont stop me from buying it, haha.

Revised Thread Title: What I don't like about Skyrim so far...

The fact it feels like an expansion on ob is good IMO the fact the previous game jumped about is the irregularity them being happy with a preset specific is good they have there happy working grounds.

Items will be numerous, no need to worry there I think it's good more stuff will feel Nordic we are in skyrim after all.

Character choice could be a shame to let slide but we no nothing of racial abilitys they could be must more like perks or attributes than just a power here and there. So I'm happy to wait n c here.

More environment interactivity and it being home of the nords clash how? I think the layers of history through ruins and lore should fill this gap more realisticly that haveing 10 different little china towns for each race.

Combat as been reassessed and so and skill progression, enemy and level design also. So for me they are all I want to see progress. I'm not sure what your after but yes already has more content that 2 or 3 normal games combined. And I don't want to suddenly be folded with lots of silly context action for single instances plz.

I can understand some of what you're saying, but really, where else do you get games this big, this detailed, this many options? In my opinion these games would have to be simplified a LOT more before they're at the level of most other games out there. Instead of asking why this doesn't have x features, I'm asking why don't other games have at least the features of TES games.

I don't see how you can say 1.

They've changed the skills, added perks, removed attributes, added dragons, changed the area, added dual wielding, added enchanting in as a skill again, added crafting, removed birthsigns, changed the armour slots, added economies, added deeper relationships, built dynamic quests based on Radiant story etc. so how can you say it isn't different to Oblivion? I really cannot see how you can come to the conclusion that it's too similar. It's TOTALLY different. You don't want it to be so different it lacks any connection with it's roots, Oblivion, Morrowind, Daggerfall and Arena.

Anyone know any games where swords get stuck in trees? This sounds like very big wish list of features, I don't see how you could judge any game against this list, and not be disappointed with it.

It's actually quite different from Oblivion because most of the underlying systems of the game have been re-worked. It's not like MW where the base game stays exactly the same and they just add a few new features.

The environment stuff while cool... is very hard to implement in a game like this. There are rumours of being able to smash lanterns to create fires and shock people in water for extra damage (bioshock style) but it's not confirmed yet.

Listening and watching some of the dragon encounters they have displayed in the game make me baffled that you don't see this as a totally different game. If all they did was add these awesome dragon battles that would sell me alone. I can't remember the first time I wanted to be able to slay a dragon in a game. Not one single RPG I have played gave me real satisfaction in fighting and slaying a dragon and this looks like it will be one of the first to actually offer that. The fact that they are "mostly" random in that I mean you can run into them anywhere and by accident makes it completely suspensful and how a dragon fight should be, Sort of reminds me of big daddy encounters in Bioshock. You hear a dragon roar from the distance and you look to the sky to find out where it is.. all of a sudden you spot it and its diving in your direction about to spit some seriously dragon language at you, thats all I needed to be sold and they did so much more.

Though it would get kind of annoying if I'm a khajiit and people start to chase me on random occasions

I came into this thread hoping for a good technical breakdown of some gameplay mechanics that you would want implemented but all I get is a kids wishlist? A developer cannot put everything into a game. Im sorry but our storage media just doesn't quite add up to what we would need to realistically create a fully functioning world. I think what you would need is something approaching infinite storage space.

I just don't see the point in threads aimed at pointing out features that WEREN'T included int he game.

"What? No AR-15s? Wheres my CoD Modern Tamriel?"

"Why can't I ride dragons?"

"How come there are no throwing stars, halberds, rayguns, 20-piece armor sets or enchanted items that refill their own and everyone's enchantments automatically?"

"What? No entirely nautical campaign areas? I wanna be on a boat!"

"How come Santa Clause doesn't cameo as a hermit on top of a snow covered mountain?"

/end frustration

-giggle snort-

I like looking at these criticism composite threads because I'm trying to figure out what people claim are all the streamlining/dumbing down components that Bethesda keeps stacking up. I usually just see merged armor, marriage, and lack of game-changing decisions. I usually agree with the fact that I prefer a game that lets me change the storyline based on smaller decisions, or decisions that I make for just one faction. Who wouldn't like a full on war of necromancer vs dragon? Or undead dragons? There's certainly a lot of possibilities that Bethesda shot down so that they could develop a game that maintains its structure through all different playing styles. It's so big, and the audience is so big, that giving you the ability to ruin the game could be considered game-breaking by a whole lot of people. By keeping to their scripts, Skyrim doesn't have to abide by the multitude of possibilities that any player character could bring into play. It's sad, but I've never seen someone pull it off at this level, so it might be our only choice for now.

That being said, I had to force myself to go beyond your number one. There's just...look: Do you feel that the Halo series is a set of expansion packs? I wouldn't blame you for that. Do you feel that the GTA series is just a set of expansion packs? If you say yes, then I'd be a bit surprised. Now you're telling me that Skyrim is an expansion of Oblivion? Do you understand what a sequel is? Are you trying to tell me that Half-Life 2 is a sequel to Wolfenstein, or something? That Dragon Age is a sequel to Final Fantasy 1? I can't comprehend the set of requirements for a sequel that you must be using in order to determine that Skyrim is not a sequel to Oblivion, but is just an expansion. For a game to throw away all of its mechanics, and all of its features in order to make another game in another setting...well those are just completely unrelated, they're not sequels. Let's take a look at sequel criteria:

1) They exist in the same universe? √ But so do expansions, so we haven't made any distinction here.
2) They are not the same game? √ Oblivion was about Oblivion, as far as the main quest goes, Skyrim is about dragons, civil war, and that jazz.
3) There are measurable improvements over the first? √ We're seeing improved graphics, a new combat system that focuses on two-handed combat, improved quest and dialogue systems, and so much more.
4) The second one is not an expansion pack for the other? √ Skyrim uses the Creation Engine, which is itself a sequel to the Gamebryo Engine. You do not play Oblivion in order to unlock Skyrim, Skyrim is not a continuation of Oblivion. There is 200 years between them, your new character is given a blank slate and does not rely on your character from Oblivion. It has a completely independent main quest, two out of three of the main factions are different, and the third will certainly not have the same quest. The stories are related because one leads to another, just like a sequel ought to.

I see what you're arguing. You want destructible environments. How does that have anything to do with a sequel?! What you seem to be saying is that you don't care if they simply remake Oblivion so long as there are destructible environments. I can see it now! Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion: Destructible Environments! But you can see that I'm kidding with you, and that I've clearly lost my temper along the way. I do apologize if I have offended you, and I know that I have mischaracterized your arguments just now. I won't edit that, though, because I believe that some of your headers are tired complaints, and your explanations of them don't always have anything to do with them. If you really want to criticize the decisions that Bethesda is making, then do just that. If you really think Skyrim can be a better game, then please tell me how. I know Skyrim can be better. I know that Bethesda could make changes, and they would give ME a Skyrim that I prefer over the Skyrim that they're making for everyone. If you think you see something that no one will like, or that the majority will hate, then please tell me. I'd love to hear about. And you know what? I'd even like to form a modding team that will take care of it for you. Sorry if you're on a console, but maybe I can select computer components for you, help you form your resume so that you can get a job with some nice pay, and then you can buy a computer that will support Skyrim mods).

I'm completely serious in all that I'm saying. You want complex companions? I've already does most of the design for three completely unique companions, all romanceable, friendable, and none of them will force you to be with them. They all have complex backstory that is attached to custom lore, but that does not interefere with teh existing lore. They all have quests attached to them. Heck, one of them has a quest about you getting captured by her ninja buddies, and then you on a mission that ends with you contacting her brother in a daedric realm. Another one has a quest with a murder mystery plotline, while yet another has to do with a race that transported an entire village into another realm just so that it could be separated from time and genocide. Your decisions throughout these quests, and the other quests from the mod I'm writing, will matter. You can form a guild, and then kill every single member. You can find the lost race that I mentioned earlier, and then commit systematic genocide, and become a her to the Nords. You can help a wizard attain immortality, and then have assassins sent to kill you by a daedric prince. Skyrim will be a basis for modded Skyrim, and that's where the highest level of fun begins. Before we get to that point, though, you're gonna have to edit your first header, and better describe to me how Skyrim is an expansion and not a sequel.

/rant

I totally agree with you, looking at all the comments of people so far, maybe i should have started with some context that I do believe the Elder Scrolls saga usually presets the BEST games in the market. That for me was a fact and i usually love the game, i was just trying to drop in some ideas of what could make it even better.

I believe that, looking at every Elder Scroll game so far, there have been major changes, both in the graphical area and in the game feature area.
If i consider the delta of changes from Morrowind -> Oblivion i believe it's much much higher than Oblivion -> Skyrim seem to be.
That was my point.

I'm not saying that i don't like the game, the game looks great, and i'm not saying that i won't buy it, because i will. I was expressing what i would like to see differently.

Yeah, but could you EXPLAIN these changes?

Here are some major changes to Skyrim from Oblivion.



What exactly was a bigger change from Morrowind to Oblivion, than all of that?

Almost everything you mentioned also changed since Morrowind along with other major changes like graphics, major world changes or monster/area levelup
You can find a complete list of changes on articles in the web such as this:
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/User:TheNerdMiester/Changes_between_Oblivion_and_Morrowind

I didn't even read your whole post, not gonna lie, as soon as I read the whole thing about an expansion to Oblivion I just had to say...

























Have you seen the trailers/screenshots/interviews?!!!?!??!

Really? Oblivion added perks, removed attributes, added dragons, added dual wielding, added enchanting in as a skill again, added crafting, removed birthsigns, added economies, added deeper relationships, built dynamic quests based on Radiant story and more?

Funny how I don't remember that and that (even though you were responding (according to the user list at the bottom of the page) for about 10 minutes) you didn't actually answer my question explaining how, simply refering me to some list of the most minute details of changes rather than major things, which is not available for Skyrim as we haven't even seen it yet.

Seems to me like your only real basis for this is the change in graphics being smaller (which it has to be since it's on the same consoles), and the environment not being drastically different like Morrowind was to Cyrodiil. Skyrim has changes the monster levelling as well.

You are right i know, but:
My point was that i would like to see more major breakthroughs in the game (i know there are some). Looking at what they've done in the past i was expecting more.

I can understand this, certainly. For you, the mutability brought on by destructible environments would be a large change, but it's hard to say how it could be implemented, and if it would be truly crowd-pleasing. The way I see this sort of mutability being implemented is through a world that is completely integrated in terms of quests. Essentially, it would require a huge variety of quests, and it would let you form alliances between any factions, in order to give completely different end results. It would be a dream come true for me to be able to write something like that, but I know there's no chance that it'll be in Skyrim. I think it would be amazing if they ever decided to have a final Elder Scrolls, to let you really run with it at that point so that there doesn't need to be any single storyline that you'd followed in the previous game.

So that's that. That's the big change that I see you calling for. My suggestion is almost impossible in terms of lore. Your suggestion of dynamic environments would be really difficult to plan and hard on the technology. As great as they would both be, and as amazing as a game would be with some of these changes, it won't happen. Essentially, Skyrim can't be that good. So my question is this: what were you expecting? You seem to be asking for more. More variety, mostly. So what's the breakthrough that you're seeking? It's fine if you can't think of something. If you could, then I'd say you might apply to work for Bethesda. Could you cite an example based on the Morrowind to Oblivion transition? Graphics have improved for Skyrim, but they are held back technologically because we're still in the same generation of technology. Morrowind was developed for the last generation, while these last two are the current. The combat was a big change, but that's because Morrowind combat really svcked, and now it's being seriously polished for Skyrim (in my opinion, the new system is incredibly different, and that will show in how it plays, still speculating, though). Morrowind had a static world, Oblivion had a scaled world, and now Bethesda is trying to find the correct balance rather than making some huge change.

What are some examples of large changes between those games that you don't think have parallels for Skyrim?

1, 2, 5 and 6 are directly contrary to what we have been told and shown.

I wasn't going to post again for a while, but this is just too silly a post to pass up.

True, both games changed skills, changed the "area", and changed armor slots.

Oblivion added approximately 80 perks, all earned at set intervals in each skill. Skyrim adds 200 more on top of that, which can be picked in a tree order from any skill upon level up. It's an entirely different system. Oblivion's could hardly be called perks in comparison.

Oblivion did not remove attributes, add dragons, add dual wielding, add enchanting (it actually removed part of it), add crafting, change birthsigns much at all, add economies, add deeper relationships, or use much of any Radiant AI in quests.

Oblivion's graphics only really differed from Morrowind in its use of ragdoll physics, distant land, grass, and animations. Textures don't count, those are easy to replace. Grass was added to Morrowind too. Distant land has been added to Morrowind with a graphics extender. Really the only thing Oblivion has going for it that hasn't been added to Morrowind in some way is ragdoll physics and animations.

Skyrim's graphics, while not a big leap forward in textures (it's on the same damn console generation for starters), adds shadows to every object in the game. It improves animations over Oblivion more than Oblivion did over Morrowind. Distant land appears to have been made far more efficient if the videos we've seen are anything to go by. Small amounts of land deformation by dragon fire, frost, and crash landings were added, including dynamic removal of grass. Features like dynamic snow, actual lightning (woo!), (hopefully) rain that doesn't move with the screen or fall through roofs, and probably some unseen weather effects. Most of this hasn't been yet added to Oblivion. Maybe it will be after Skyrim releases. Regardless, Skyrim's graphics appear to be a greater leap in every way but textures.

What exactly do you mean by "major world changes"?

Skyrim's overhaul of the leveled content is just as innovative as Oblivion's. Oblivion just slapped stuff into leveled lists, and slapped those into the world. Skyrim's system appears to be much more specific to the area, to each individual dungeon. That's quite a change.

Oblivion's changes to combat are actually quite simple. Active block is an awesome addition. You are allowed to cast spells when equipped with other items. There was no more directional attacks, but you had power attacks instead. Skyrim's new hand system changes more than Oblivion did. Combat works under mostly the same rules, but now you can only cast spells if you have a hand open to equip them. Dual-wielding opens up a lot of possibilities as well, especially with perks differentiating between weapon types like swords and axes. Blocking is timed now, which is a big change that no one seems to appreciate. Shield bashing is new. Finishing moves (whether they'll be good or not) are new. Again, there was a big animation overhaul.

DRAGON SHOUTS.

Skyrim adds carriages back into the game, and retains fast travel at the same time.

Radiant Story is far more involved than Radiant AI was, both in NPC schedules and quest mechanics as well. The most Radiant AI did for Oblivion quests was schedule an NPC to come find you. Not to mention how much it would screw the occasional quest up.

Revamped dialogue system, with real-time dialogue and no horrible zoom.

Much more interesting menu system, and overhauled but sort of ugly HUD.

Completely revamped the leveling system. They didn't just remove attributes and add perks. They removed classes and Major/Minor skills, and replaced it with a more complex system where skill level determines how much it contributes to a character level.

We can probably assume some new stealth mechanics, considering how crappy Oblivion's were.

150 handcrafted dungeons this time, and a handcrafted map. As opposed to Oblivion's copy-paste dungeons and generated landscape.

And this is only what we know from less than 15 minutes of gameplay and miscellaneous discussion!