Imagine being told in RL that the world you're in is a cosmic holding cell. A penal colony if you will, waiting until your soul is ready to be reincarnated. Upon your death in this world, your soul is processed and then moves on to a much purer, more blissful existence. The person telling you this even gives you good, solid, proveable evidence. Would you then be willing to just commit suicide right then and there, because you know? No. There'd always be doubt for something like that. And for a metaphysical realization like that (coupled with no doubt some mystical mumbo jumbo of actually being in a position to be able to perceive the Tower) you won't truly believe it's true until you yourself achieve the realization.

If you want a cryptic aphorism that explains this: you can know something and then you can KNOW something, if you take my meaning.

Hmm, you do have a point there. I wouldn't go kill myself even if you told me about it. It's something I'd have to experience to really truly believe.


Wait, so how does one achieve CHIM or zero-sum? Do you have to just believe it? Or do you have to kill yourself to achieve either of them? I'm lost now. How do you begin to achieve either of those?


EDIT: So if Vivec achieved CHIM, why couldn't he just conquer the universe? I mean, don't you become the god of the Aurbis and can change anything you want since the entire TES universe is only a dream and you're in control of it?

But wait, if you gave me solid evidence that shows that there is a better life after this one, then maybe I would shoot myself in the head. But nobody can prove Heaven or Hell, so it's not something that you're quick to pursue. But now that I think about it, if you could prove that there was a much better world than this, then yeah, I'd go buy a gun and kill myself so I could go there.

CHIM is more than just knowing the sham of percieved reality. If that was all it was, the Dwemer would all be god and wouldn't have needed to build crazy projects like a Big Robot to stomp their way to godhead.

That would be redundant.

Besides, exercising omnipotence is just no fun. Not for the duckies, not for you. :nope:


To your other point. If somebody achieved that level of divinity its doubtful that they're gonna spend their time running around trying to convinced every random adventurer of the true realities of the universe, not only because its unlikely those random adventurers would believe them, but also because the achiever of that level of divinity would realize that its more of a personal venture than it is a textbook lesson to be taught. Becoming all-power-uber-leet isn't the goal of CHIM, its a side-affect. :lightbulb:

:turtle:

I can't understand what you're saying. Side effect? I'll just wait till HellMouth or JackFrost or Mirander or FC4 come back on. Proweler's super smart but I can't understand anything he says either.

I meant just what I said. The people that achieved CHIM weren't just trying to get power. That they become all-powerful is just something that happens to occur when you achieve CHIM, but becoming all-powerful isn't the purpose of CHIM. Its only natural that Vivec isn't around flaunting his CHIM by changing everything because that sort of mundane influence over things doesn't really matter once you have CHIM, plus like I said, exercising omnipotence is boring. :cheat:

Comparing CHIM to a lucid dream is a bad anology. In a lucid dream you're preoccupied with controlling the dream, you just care about having your way and playing with the power that comes with having a lucid dream. CHIM is not like having a lucid dream, though if you have CHIM you'd have the same powers you would in a lucid dream. But like I said, the powers aren't important.

The Loveletter isn't describing how to become a god to the people or a god of Mundus, its describing how to ascend beyond all that. Its not talking about how to get to be a uber-leet god so that can have your way with the world just because you know its not real.

Vehk's Teachings says that it deals with how to "transcend mortal boundaries set in place by immortal rulers. At its simplest, the state of chim provides an escape from all known laws of the divine worlds and the corruptions of the black sea of Oblivion." See, "at its simplest" CHIM makes it so you're all-powerful and immortal, but that's at its simplest, its not the actual point of it. All-powerful is a surface view that doesn't get at the meat of the issue. Transcendence is the issue. :icecream:

I know I repeated myself alot in there, but a key thing to understand is that the power that accompanies CHIM is almost irrelevant (despite being the most talked-about aspect of it). The texts dealing with CHIM only mention the power it holds in passing, they do this because its not the point of the issue. If you want to have a fruitful discussion of CHIM, have one where nobody's allowed to mention the power that comes with it. That talk just side-tracks people.

:turtle:

ok, take this with a grain of salt and don't quote me on any of this, but i think that CHIM is TES equivalent of going from(or rather, being made to go from) a mortal to being a part of the Godhead while also now being the Godhead. it is existing and maintaining that you are something while undeniably knowing that you do not really exist and you are nothing. CHIM is you are in the dream and you are part of the dream but you are the one dreaming and you are the one in the absolute control of the dream all while the dream is in the absolute control of you. CHIM is discovering the meaning of, and the reason for, your existence and still keep on existing even though you realize that the meaning of, and the reason for, your existence is to exist and not to exist at the same time. the mortal basically realizes that he is nothing while maintaining that he is something because he knows that somehow he is able to maintain that he is something even though he is nothing and realizes that he is nothing. confusing? sorry. lets put it this way: MK takes Vivic and makes Vivic a part of and the Godhead. MK may now credits Vivic anything that MK does for TES and TES universe will be made to take it as if Vivic is the one doing it(though to them, Vivic really is the one doing it) all while at the same time Vivic is made to understand that it is MK who is really the one in charge and MK's bidding is being done, not Vivic's. Vivic is, and knows that he is, a tool and a puppet, but at the same time Vivic is, and knows that he is, a part of but also the Godhead. Vivic has CHIM now . eh, anyways, i hope that make sense and i think i am done.

lol - if you want anologies then Chimp is holding the awareness a dev or a modder - however does any one dev or modder actually know all there is to know about TES? Nope ... dream on guys.

However, hows about in-game CHIMp (it's a silent and invisible p but always there) being 'holding the awareness of TES consciously in its entirety'? adding that we are out-game so we would have to hold the awareness of this reality including TES consciously in its entirety' to achieve CHIMp and remember folks that TES exists in this univers too as a game, a property, a legal tool etc ...

CHIM has nothing to do with anything out of game. we, the player, cannot achieve CHIM, it is only for the people in the universe (the "characters") to obtain. Their world has no real meaning to us, it is just a construct limited by our technology and our imagination. To them it is real, and it is up to them to realize its nature.

I was going to send the following by PM, but your inbox has been full for the past 2 years, so i'll put it here: this "CHIMp" thing is not funny and adds nothing to the discussion. If anything, it confuses those who are not familiar with CHIM. Please stop. Also, "Ilyana" is spelled "Iliana"

back on topic...

people with CHIM dont care about conquering the world because they know that they are the world. that rock over there? part of the Godhead who is I. so is that man, and that house, and that river. what is the point of owning something artificially if you have achieved the ultimate goal of transcending limited existence?

Ok
I don't want to mention anything controversial about religion that will get my post deleted, but it really annoys me when people say that CHIM has no relevence to the real world, or real world religions, when it obviously does.

A good way of gaining a greater understanding of something like CHIM would be to look at the real life inspirations for these ideas. A study of Hinduism would probably be helpful (although probably more relevent to TES Universe zero-summing )

Aaah, I don't want to get deleted. I'm really just trying to help.

CHIM resembles the end goal of Hinduism and Budhism (and Christianity etc. too, though it is less obvious), but it is not the same thing. Studying other religions may help some people, but ultimately it introduces various concepts which have nothing to do with CHIM and can actually lead to further confusion. real world ascension is about becoming(=realizing) one with the godhead, CHIM is realizing that you are one all along but still maintaining your own ego. Being able to say "I" when you are everything, knowing who "I" is when you are the only thing there is.

Exercising omnipotence isn't boring. That's just YOUR opinion of it. But you don't speak for me or anybody else on here nor any of the characters in the game. I'm sure there are lots of people who would use their omnipotent power to do tons of things. I certainly would. But you're not me and I'm not you, so we would approach the same thing with different goals in mind.

So what is the purpose of achieving CHIM? Explain why anybody would want to achieve it?
I still don't get what it means to transcend mortal boundaries. "transcend" means "to go through" right? God, this would be so much quicker to understand if I could just chat with someone on yahoo or skype, instead of having to take days and days just to have a conversation.

The black sea of oblivion is just the void, right?



Yes they do. It's Bethesda's game series. They can say anything they want about it. But then again, I don't know everything there is to know about Vedaa Addammassar (my character), and I've been working on her biography for the past few months now. I guess you have some what of a point.

If you knew what it entailed, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation#Negative_Effects.

uh, okay. I don't see what that has to do with anything we're talking about here. That's just a test they did with people in a black room who saw things. So what?

Wait. We're talking about Chim, but you never realized that the godhead, the dreamer, that which starts the interplay that made the world and one tries to realize it's place in as part of the Psijic Endevour, is in exactly that situation? You really should understand the Monomyth and the related concepts before you try to tackle something like Chim.

There is no way around it but in the end once you're done with that, you're going to have to read http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml. You're going to have to understand the concepts involved by trying for yourself rather then asking people questions already answered in there. People can't argue you into understanding.

saying something like that proves you would not acheive CHIM.



When you HAVE it, yes its boring. Its not having it that makes it interesting...the clasic example from RL is, you have your toy but your friends toy looks cooler because you DONT have it.




People with CHIM wouldn't want to change everything because they'd know in the end it doesn;t make a difference

okay how about this, you ARE everything and everything is you. But not everybody knows this. CHIM is knowing that as a person you are also the world but still thinking you're an individual.

Well I'm not in the game for one thing, so of course I wouldn't achieve it. CHIM is an elder scrolls thing that was thought up not too long ago. It certainly wasn't around in the Daggerfall days.
And I've always been happy with my toys, which is why I still have them. Again, your point of view is just that, YOUR point of view. That's something you're not realizing. How do you know whether a person would like omnipotence or not? You're not that person; you're you.

I agree with your next sentence.

@ last sentence, I still don't see why it's so hard to just "know" that. But perhaps I'll try reading monomyth and vekhs teachings a bit more and see if I can get anything out of them because what you're saying just isn't making any sense to me.

you seam to be taking offense to genralisations, they're not ment to be offensive. Also I am fully aware that its a TES thing. But to understand...I mean REALLY understand something you need to put yourself in the idea

people who seek CHIM are not power hungry. They are not looking for power, they are looking for enlightenment and transcendence. when one achieves CHIM, or even begins to grasp the necessary concepts, one realizes just how purposeless, powerless, and homogenous life is. most stop existing when they realize that they are just a small, insignificant part of a dreamer's dream. those that manage to assert their individuality don't do so for the power, they do so because they know the truth and are ready for the ultimate revelation. CHIM is finding out that nothing is real, and yet daring to hold on to some concept of yourself. what is the point in power and conquest if you know that none of it matters and that all of it is really just an extension of yourself? what is the point of years and years of study and almost certain failure with no clear goal in sight (no one can say for certain what it takes to reach CHIM)? there are much easier ways to obtain power.

im going to echo Proweler and say that you need to read the Teachings. the Sermons and the Love Letter are also important texts. yes, they are not for a 6th grade reading level, but they are fully manageable. get a dictionary if you must. no one can explain it better than these texts, because as soon as its taken out of context it is muddied and corrupted. if youre going to attempt to tackle higher level concepts you must be willing and able to do some critical reading.

CHIMp

ok, never meant to imply that we can achieve CHIM or anything like that. obviously CHIM has nothing to do with real world. obviously Vivic knows nothing of the real world. but being a part of the game and the part of TES universe anywhere else(your imagination, fan fics, novel, etc) Vivic is made to realize that he is in charge of now his universe, but at the same time...
a)someone or something is in charge of him but he knows nothing of who or what exactly is in charge of him
b)he is limited to his universe, and
c)he knows nothing of our universe.

you might as well take your PC and write a fan fic where he or she is made(by you) to achieve CHIM and now you have another CHIM-fied TES character in addition to Vivic and Talos.

but again, refer to what i said earlier, about the dream... character with CHIM is
a)a part of the dream and knows it
b)is in the dream and knows it
c)is now the one dreaming the dream
d)is now the one controlling it
e)knows that he or she is the one dreaming the dream and that he or she is controlling it
f)the dream controls him or her and he or she knows that the dream is controlling him or her

take two circles. circle A is inside the circle B but at the same time, the circle B is inside the circle A and there you have it. Un-CHIM-ified character was a part of the circle inside the other circle. CHIM-ified, he or she is now a part of both circles and knows about both circles and in charge of both circles and is both circles. basically, complete transcendence beyond the universe they used to perceive as real but were made to see that it is not and that at the same time it is real ALL while remaining in the universe they used to perceive.

the moon smashed Vivic city. basically, Vivic did it. the writer wrote the story and did it, yes. but Vivic is the one that did it too; he was inside the universe but now he is the universe, so you might as well blame Vivic for it(and not be wrong). in no way is Vivic the writer of the novel, absolute not. but he is the one that did it because he is the universe now. he even announced he would do it in the Loveletter. anyways, i am pushing the line here, i think... i'l have to gather my thoughts and come back to it later .

_LPS I have no idea what you were going to say re CHIM(p) - however never underestimate the monkeyness of it all - it seems MK rather likes monkies, so do I - while I try not to be under any illusions about the nature of apes I also recognise that CHIM is an ape invention and therefore believe one should never lose sight of the effect of that fact = CHIM(p) + the fact that from time to time I have the more than sneaking suspicion that some folks are using it to get up to monkey business.


Tes96 dony let it get to ya - it is a complicated concept blessed and cursed by its own simplicity. Basically if it is about the all of it all it has to include both your and proweler's ideas as well as everyone else's. And given that we are experientially and directly involved in gameplay - that we actually PAY to enter TES we are part of it so it includes us and therefore both the released material and our part in it. So it covers all things. That makes both you and proweler right and wrong according to your own choice - CHIM(p)-wise so there is no need to worry about that

Also Vivec is a very misleading character - designedly so - a rogue and a liar by self-definition and self admission so you have to be very careful when dealing with anything that he says ... he loves to play games with your thinky-bits and is more than somewhat amoral by most people's standards = that's what fascinates about him. But you also have to see that no character in TES is the product of only one Dev - they each appropriate various NPCs to their own special purposes - but they all contribute to each other's activities - that's what makes TES great!

Take a look at his last appearences in-game - here was a demi-god claiming that he acccepted that his power was diminishing - now given that God-power in TES rests on the belief of others we may speculate that it would be a fine way to recoup some of that to convince others that you had defeated A Daedric Prince!. If you faked that, then what would you have to do to maintain the illusion that you actually were greater than you were? Disappear

By doing so it might be that in time you would in fact become greater than you might have otherwise been - and more powerful

In any case - Vivec thrives on controversy so argue on

Basically my position is 'Wot Me Worry'

Did you ever read the Sermons? They contradict your post. See Sermon 17 ("Spiked Waters") or Sermon 11 ("He is redeemed by each act he undertakes. His death is only a diagram back to the waking world.")
Besides: He's called Vivec.


What?


As to the relevance for the real world - and I take the risk of posting it, there's quite a similarity between the following two issues:

"“This is the love of God.”
Why Love?
Know Love to avoid the Landfall, my brothers and sisters of the past.
[...]
I ARE ALL WE.
God is Love."
(http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml)

and

"Charity (virtue) (unlimited loving-kindness toward all others)
[...]
Deus caritas est - "God is love".

Love, in this sense of an unlimited loving-kindness towards all others, is held to be the ultimate perfection of the human spirit, because it is said to both glorify and reflect the nature of God. In its most extreme form such love can be self-sacrificial. Confusion can arise from the multiple meanings of the English word "love." The love that is caritas is distinguished by its origin, being Divinely infused into the soul, and by its residing in the will rather than emotions, regardless of what emotions it stirs up. This love is necessary for salvation, and with it no one can be lost.
[...]"
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charity_%28virtue%29)

I'll solve this CHIM [censored] right now, if Todd Howard will answer one question.


Are the writers for TES Stephen King fans? If they are, then I know EXACTLY what CHIM is.

How?

And to the thread, doesn't the loveletter form the 5th era say a lot about CHIM?