What does CHIM mean? : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:13 am

since Vivec has CHIM, is it not possible that he went back in time and left us the Loveletter in which he told us that the moon will crash into the city as a sign of things to come, almost as if he announced that it was the intention of the universe to crash the moon into the city? seeing how he is a part of the Godhead now, its sound to a plausible notion that he is also responsible for the moon crashing; i mean, since CHIM-ified person IS the universe now(as it was mentioned before), sound like the universe(and Vivec because he is the universe now) is responcible for the moon crashing. the universe did it, and since Vivec is the universe, he did it. so did Talos.

Like I said in the other thread, Vivec didn't send the Loveletter.

:turtle:

» Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:28 am

@Luagar

So is there an in-Universe source for it, or is it just a forum assumption? I have never personally seen any in-Universe character profess this belief. This is quickly leading me to an assumption that it was made up so that people didn't need to stop saying that it's all soul-clumps from the Dreamsleeve despite proof to the contrary (this particular case being Sovngarde) from Bloodmoon.

» Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:30 am

To love Vivec is to love everything. And to love everything is to love Vivec.

Well what if Vedaa achieves CHIM in addition to Vivec? And same for Rodywyr Buckingcroft and John Smith and Joe Double Blow? If they all achieve CHIM, then they'll all love everyone and themselves and everyone should love them and everyone else. So basically, we should all love everybody, including ourselves.

Hey, I got a question. You have the ability to alter the universe when you achieve CHIM; changing this "dream", so to speak. What happens when someone else achieves CHIM and changes something that contradicts what you changed? Like, you make Nirn be made out of gold and someone else makes it made out of plastic?

» Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:16 pm

@Lugar

The loveletter mentions, that souls go to their alligned AE "either the god-planet Aedra or the Principalities of Oblivion". Not Aetherius. In Elnofex AE is used as connector - and - so here it specifies that which people are connected too by their souls. For most this would be the Dreamsleeve, but it can also be Oblivion for the Daedra, Paradise for Mankars followers and the respective Principalities for Daedra worshippers (think Umaril, or Stri'iker during the trial of Vivec. It was even possible to become an immortal lieutenant to one of Dagons minions in one of Battlespires premature endings).

@Tropes

Nevermind that you are being contrary just for the sake of it, but where are you every time I dumped one of http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=1059319&view=findpost&p=15383327? You hark up all these questions, many of which you could at least start to answer by gathering up every snippet about what happens when people dy and return one form or another.

» Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:26 pm

but other people believing that the entire world is the product of a dreaming schitzo-god doesn't effect my enjoyment of it, so whatever. To each his own personal Rule of Cool.

Wait wouldn't that be sheogorath? Sheogorath has totally nothing to do with CHIM, but I know you weren't refering to SHEOGORATH. I just wanted to make it clear that sheogorath has nothing to do with CHIM, that's a human concept for an aedric state of being.

» Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:18 pm

Wait wouldn't that be sheogorath? Sheogorath has totally nothing to do with CHIM, but I know you weren't refering to SHEOGORATH. I just wanted to make it clear that sheogorath has nothing to do with CHIM, that's a human concept for an aedric state of being.

Sheogorath is the Daedric prince of madness, one of the original beings that did not give themselves up to the creation of Mundus. Thus he too is a part of the godhead, and thus would be included in CHIM (about as much as the rock outside Balmora is included in CHIM, he doesn't get a special place just because he is the Prince of Madness or anything).

» Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:32 pm

If you think Sheogorath has nothing--that is, NOTHING--to do with CHIM, then you don't know CHIM.

» Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:26 pm

then you don't know CHIM.

Well of course we don't know CHIM! I certainly don't. If we all knew it, we wouldn't be on here asking about it.

» Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:38 am

If you think Sheogorath has nothing--that is, NOTHING--to do with CHIM, then you don't know CHIM.

What I was saying is that Sheogorath is not causing all the madness to do with the dreaming of the Godhead. He is a part of the godhead and thus to do with the self awakening of CHIM, but he is no more essential than anyone or anything else. That's all I was saying.

» Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:28 am

Understood.

» Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:34 am

CHIM, CHIMiney, CHIM, CHIMiney, CHIM, CHIM, CHeroo... (technically CHIM rhymes with time)

Now that thats out of the way: CHIM is like an insider joke which can never ever ever be fully explained to the uninformed due to the forums restricting of conversation regarding real world religions...also these topics have been done like 50 kabillion times, but I digress...

To add to the conversation though: I always associate CHIM to the Joker (not Jack Nicholson, or Heath Ledger...epic as they may be) from the DC universe...one day he's just your common "thugging-it-up" criminal in Gotham...til one fateful day, while trying to rob the old Acme chemical plant, a man dressed as a giant bat throws/attempts to save him from a nice chemical bath...bish bam boom we have the Joker...

According to the universe, as they live it, the people percieve the Joker as a sadist madman hellbent on causing strife and destruction...but to the Joker, he's realized something more during that bath: he's trapped in a universe that no matter how many times he's maimed, mangled or outright killed he will ALWAYS come back, in one form or another...having realized the futility of playing "by the rules" he decides to bring about ruin and genocide, just to liven up a boring day...since he now understands there is no real consequences to his actions...none, zip, zero...and the carnage begins...

Now does this realization make him more dangerous? Definitely, even to other villians

Would the people ever believe his tall tale of being trapped in a box? Nope, for that would be madness

So even though no other soul in his entire universe would ever listen to such nonsense the Joker KNOWS he's right and KNOWS that the box is the real deal...but he'll be the only one, forever...even when he directly forth-wall breaks

Now has the Joker achieved CHIM? For his universe, yes...he's woken up from his dreamsleeve and percieves the "world" for what it truly is, and despite his pleas of "Dude, we're in a freaking comic book, look their watching us RIGHT NOW!" everyone just laughs and says "That guys a nut, lol"

If you attempted to tell that to any character in game "OMG we're trapped in a vidya game!" they'd percieve you as the Joker, and probably avoid you at all costs...thats my take on it anyways...

The End

Well okies - you might like to listen to that song again - in the original film? Chim (pronounced) as in Chimp as sung by chimney sweeps if you go with the story - and the pronunciation is somewhat different according to who sings - but in this case a certain magical lady was of the belief that the cimney sweeps might have a certain wisdom of their own. Sometimes wisdom is where you find it.

That leads to a question of who can access CHIM(p) - just about anyone or anything who actually achieves it. It is nowhere that I am aware of mooted as a racial ability or philosophy. But you might always speculate that Daedra and Aedra (given that they supposedly reject each other) are for all their power less likely to achieve it. Cosmic joke is that it appears Vivec has ^^

Pounds-With-Fist, you and Lycanthropic get kudos for leading to those odd thoughts

However there are other strings to the bow - add in Journey to the West (and its abridged translation Monkey) which is one of the most famous works of classical Chinese Literature - likely based on an actual journey by the Tang dynasty monk Tang Sangzang, aka Chen Wei, aka Xuanzang - that was about a quest for enlightenment and 'retrieving' the scrolls on which his religious beliefs were founded ... etc - that trail leads to India and so on ...

Language connects - usuallly the same words mean different things to different people ... but it's worth including stuff just to see where it leads. To places that truly satisfy if you're lucky.

But why? There is a lot of talk about it all coming from vast stretches of philosophic learnedness - whereas it might easily have been born in the mind of a certain dev because he once enjoyed a children's song ...

» Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:14 am

Are the spirits victims of a great lie or conspirators against the godhead; is CHIM justice or injustice? The recurring theme is clear, but the story-arch may change abruptly, and the godhead plays each role.

» Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:09 am

Are the spirits victims of a great lie or conspirators against the godhead; is CHIM justice or injustice? The recurring theme is clear, but the story-arch may change abruptly, and the godhead plays each role.

:lightbulb: :goodjob:

» Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:36 pm

Sheogorath is the Daedric prince of madness, one of the original beings that did not give themselves up to the creation of Mundus. Thus he too is a part of the godhead, and thus would be included in CHIM (about as much as the rock outside Balmora is included in CHIM, he doesn't get a special place just because he is the Prince of Madness or anything).

Sheogorath is his realm, and can change it(aka himself)...

» Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:54 am

@Tropes

Nevermind that you are being contrary just for the sake of it, but where are you every time I dumped one of http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=1059319&view=findpost&p=15383327? You hark up all these questions, many of which you could at least start to answer by gathering up every snippet about what happens when people dy and return one form or another.

About my contrariness, I just think someone needs to keep the lore forum from being nothing but "Question asked-Degrades to unrelated CHIM thread-degrades to unrelated Vivec thread" like most of them. This is a CHIM topic, and CHIM is interesting to toss around, like I said, I just think TES is more interesting without it on a personal level, and get sick of people talking about it like absolute fact when there are alternate possibles.

And I'm looking at your notes on the linked post, I see evidence of the Dreamsleeve, which I've said is plentiful, but the links to saying all afterlives are the Dreamsleeve interpreted by expectation are all speculation, as I've also put forward here. I will again restate a third point I've made here, that in a world where multiple gods are proven to exist, why is it such a stretch to beleive that there are also multiple potential afterlives based on what you worshiped? Why this drive to unify everything in TES to the philosophy of a bat[censored] crazy false leech god from a backwater?

But the real question is why does me enjoying TES more when everything doesn't boil down to "anonymous, meaningless soul matter from a crazy god" piss people off so much?

Wait wouldn't that be sheogorath? Sheogorath has totally nothing to do with CHIM, but I know you weren't refering to SHEOGORATH. I just wanted to make it clear that sheogorath has nothing to do with CHIM, that's a human concept for an aedric state of being.

I just call the Godhead a gigantic schitzo-god because he/she/it is said to have supposedly divided him/her/itself, and the divisions created things, etc.

» Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:02 pm

Perception, Tropes! All souls came from one godhead, and so they return. Ashes to ashes; dust to dust, so to speak. I don't know if that really happens, but we must remember: the author doesn't tell us either, he's been cryptic about it, so as not to be wrong if the truth is contrary, and to let us connect the dots for ourselves. The accounts of afterlife do not conflict, when you consider souls can dream. All souls belong to one person's dream.

If the entirety of reality is one person's dream, all persons are his, and to him they return. I believe some souls have manipulated the afterlife. For example, valient Nords may keep their memory, but must stay dreaming for eternity. Arkay's gift to mortals was a protected recycle. The Daedra keep their memories, and they may return, but are awake through the recycle. I can't point to a single text that tells me I'm right, though.

» Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:58 pm

Sheogorath is his realm, and can change it(aka himself)...

Daedra are themselves unchanging changers (insanity and creativity can't really change themseveves, but they can change a bunch of other stuff)

» Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:22 pm

Perception, Tropes! All souls came from one godhead, and so they return. Ashes to ashes; dust to dust, so to speak. I don't know if that really happens, but we must remember: the author doesn't tell us either, he's been cryptic about it, so as not to be wrong if the truth is contrary, and to let us connect the dots for ourselves. The accounts of afterlife do not conflict, when you consider souls can dream. All souls belong to one person's dream.

If the entirety of reality is one person's dream, all persons are his, and to him they return. I believe some souls have manipulated the afterlife. For example, valient Nords may keep their memory, but must stay dreaming for eternity. Arkay's gift to mortals was a protected recycle. The Daedra keep their memories, and they may return, but are awake through the recycle. I can't point to a single text that tells me I'm right, though.

You are exactly right that the author has not told us explicitly, and I wouldn't have it any other way! That means that, if a person finds TES more interesting with CHIM, then they can go ahead and think of it that way. Or if, like me, they choose not to, they don't have to.

And while you are right, that a Dreamsleeve keeps multiple accounts of an afterlife from being in conflict, so too does having multiple gods ruling over each. For example, Sovngarde can exist alongside other afterlives ruled by othert gods.

In any event, I think my place in this particular discussion has come to an end. I enjoyed it thoroughly.

» Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:33 am

About my contrariness, I just think someone needs to keep the lore forum from being nothing but "Question asked-Degrades to unrelated CHIM thread-degrades to unrelated Vivec thread" like most of them. This is a CHIM topic, and CHIM is interesting to toss around, like I said, I just think TES is more interesting without it on a personal level, and get sick of people talking about it like absolute fact when there are alternate possibles.

Meh. It's covered ground, boring, move on.

And I'm looking at your notes on the linked post, I see evidence of the Dreamsleeve, which I've said is plentiful, but the links to saying all afterlives are the Dreamsleeve interpreted by expectation are all speculation, as I've also put forward here. I will again restate a third point I've made here, that in a world where multiple gods are proven to exist, why is it such a stretch to beleive that there are also multiple potential afterlives based on what you worshiped? Why this drive to unify everything in TES to the philosophy of a bat[censored] crazy false leech god from a backwater?

I'll start at the end here. You're essentially asking why people argue for -if you don't mind me phrasing this accurately- a mad godhead who's image is repeated on every level like a fractal. That is because from all the different angles, what you end up with. It's what the people in the world themselves discover. If you want to go off and speculate about alternatives, I can appreciate that but this isn't the right place. Start a different discussion. Hell dig up the Giving Birth to your own ancestors discussion. That's where you can speculate.

Now to get back to the afterlife thing. Both the Loveletter and Commentaries make generalized statements about what happens to souls after death. The gods you refer to are different images of the same thing (eg. Akatosh is Auriel is Alduin), influenced by cultural and religious views. Likewise Man and Mer are mostly the same, except for cultural, and religious views. A uniform afterlife, the appearance of which influenced by religion and culture is merely a continuation of this.

But the real question is why does me enjoying TES more when everything doesn't boil down to "anonymous, meaningless soul matter from a crazy god" piss people off so much?

I just call the Godhead a gigantic schitzo-god because he/she/it is said to have supposedly divided him/her/itself, and the divisions created things, etc.

I'm not pissed off. Mostly you're just arguing about stuff that people have reached a consensus about, going over it yet again is boring at most. But like I said, this is the wrong discussion for pitching alternative views and if you do, do something that is more interesting then posing questions.

» Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:08 am

Meh. It's covered ground, boring, move on.

I'll start at the end here. You're essentially asking why people argue for -if you don't mind me phrasing this accurately- a mad godhead who's image is repeated on every level like a fractal. That is because from all the different angles, what you end up with. It's what the people in the world themselves discover. If you want to go off and speculate about alternatives, I can appreciate that but this isn't the right place. Start a different discussion. Hell dig up the Giving Birth to your own ancestors discussion. That's where you can speculate.

Now to get back to the afterlife thing. Both the Loveletter and Commentaries make generalized statements about what happens to souls after death. The gods you refer to are different images of the same thing (eg. Akatosh is Auriel is Alduin), influenced by cultural and religious views. Likewise Man and Mer are mostly the same, except for cultural, and religious views. A uniform afterlife, the appearance of which influenced by religion and culture is merely a continuation of this.

I'm not pissed off. Mostly you're just arguing about stuff that people have reached a consensus about, going over it yet again is boring at most. But like I said, this is the wrong discussion for pitching alternative views and if you do, do something that is more interesting then posing questions.

Fair response - however what about the beliefs/realities to be found on other continents? To date the main basis for Lore and the consensuses (no idea how to spell the plural of that so do add yours) have been Tamriellian - even stuff from other continents comes though Tamriellian eyes - (with the exception of Nagasta?) so is it just a tiny bit possible that if or when a game starts on another continent the Lore will all be different? And different to such an extent that there will be almost no point of correspondence through which we can recognise it as occurring on Nirn?

If that is so then you might have to add into your consensus: from a Tamriellian point of view the consensus on CHIM is 'this'. ... and if you want to answer then please no 'it hasn't happened yet and it may never' -that just sounds like a cop out.

» Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:47 am

chim is meta-gaming.

» Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:48 pm

If that is so then you might have to add into your consensus: from a Tamriellian point of view the consensus on CHIM is 'this'. ... and if you want to answer then please no 'it hasn't happened yet and it may never' -that just sounds like a cop out.

I'm fairly certain that we will never see Akavir, nor hear much more about their peoples and beliefs. Akavir seems to be meant to always be the exotic locale over the horizon. The Nerevarine was probably like Marco Polo exploring Mongol and Chinese lands, with the difference that he or she will never return to recount their adventures.

» Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:30 pm

I'm fairly certain that we will never see Akavir, nor hear much more about their peoples and beliefs. Akavir seems to be meant to always be the exotic locale over the horizon. The Nerevarine was probably like Marco Polo exploring Mongol and Chinese lands, with the difference that he or she will never return to recount their adventures.

i would actually be a bit disappointed if akavir is ever presented in-game. though i do think we'll hear from the nerevarine, but people will discount it as the nerevarine going mad.

heck, i even think black marsh should remain off-limits too.

» Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:13 am

heck, i even think black marsh should remain off-limits too.

Agreed, it would be very difficult to get that just right in a game.

» Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:54 am

1. What about the beliefs/realities to be found on other continents?

2. When a game starts on another continent the Lore will all be different?

3. And different to such an extent that there will be almost no point of correspondence through which we can recognise it as occurring on Nirn?

4. If that is so then you might have to add into your consensus: from a Tamriellian point of view the consensus on CHIM is 'this'. ... and if you want to answer then please no 'it hasn't happened yet and it may never' -that just sounds like a cop out.

I hope you don't mind me breaking down your post. You're stacking questions on questions, and it all becomes rather hypothetical.

1. The http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/tsaesci.shtml shares elements with the Monomyth, even though they're described very differently.

2. That is a question I can't answer. I would hope the lore is different, though still shares the same fundamental principles.

3. That would completely depend on what is presented. I can't make a blanket statement about it.

4. I can't answer #2&3 as I don't know the future so I can't answer to #4.

I can answer you though what it would take for Chim to become a concept that exists in a Tamrielian point of view only. For simplicity I'll assume that there must be consistency, an explanation why the Tamrielic view point exists and an overarching view in which the Tamrielic, Akavir and other hypothetical view point could exist.

To get to the point where Chim would need to be considered something completely Tamrielic quite a few things need to change. Chim is a derivative of the Psijic Endevour, taught to Veloth by Boethia, so the appearance and behaviour Daedra would also need to become locally bound. Much like the Aedra, only now for something as arbitrary as a continent. A gestalt of landmasses. With that the cosmology also needs to be thrown out as well along with everything the Dwemer thought up because Oblivion isn't really space but just an extension of the heavens above Tamriel.

So basically, it takes another setting. One that wraps Tamriel in name only and discards all the metaphysics.

edit:

What WKinkade said. -_-