Like the title says, what does choosing class and leveling up your character represent to you and what do you think about Skyrim's system in this regard?

In most RPG's, and thus in most people's opinions, I see that they think that choosing a class at beginning is like choosing your past and leveling up is gaining more experience. From logical standpoint, that makes sense.

However, there is a certain thing that bothers me about this: how can you become so skilled in so little time?
That is: people in these World's practice just one skill for DECADES to reach 75% of it yet characters in most RPG's need just a year to reach 100%? In TES games, it may be more years but in most cases, you will master many skills in less then 3 years of time. Isn't that kinda... illogical and non-immersible?

So I thought about what makes more sense and came to a conclusion that TES system of leveling up makes more sense when you look at it as mainly regaining experience rather then gaining. That is, rather then becoming better with a long sword, it is more like whenever my skill increases, it is "Yes, I used to do it like this...". A year or two may not be enough to master your skills, but I think it is good enough, for a person who spent years in prison, to remember the old days and just how he used those skills.

So since this is the Skyrim forum, I look at how Skyrim fits with this:
While starting with no class and all skills (presumably) equal may be a bit weird and some people claim that it restricts your RP-ing, I'd say it doesn't restrict you at all. Even the best Knight ever would need a bit of time to get back in shape, especially if he is skilled in more then one thing. Since Skyrim's Leveling system is slower the more skills you use and limited number of Perks (every character can have max. 50 perks from total of 200+), I think it allows you to create a lot of different characters with any kind of background.


End of random rambling of a guy who has nothing better to do (actually he has, but he is just too lazy ). So vote, reply, comment, flame or just let the tread fall into Oblivion (hopefully not into Coldharbour... Molag Bal is a scary guy -_-)

Leveling is a sense of accomplishment, another perk, and the fact that I'm getting stronger. So far I'm very impressed with Skyrim and I like the customization that I saw in the menu although this is typical of an TES game.

I'm happy with it all. No classes doesn't make a difference to me, as I know already what class I am, and through every playthrough I always pick a certain set of skills, the perks just make it better.
And I'm VERY pleased with character customization, facial markings, baldness coming back, scars, beards, all of that makes me very happy. And knowing that I can customize weapons and armour means I can hopefully create my glass/daedric katana (I have a reason).

While my character will be regaining knowledge, and most of my characters are, I don't think it is immersion breaking that the PC can level past what other NPCs take, theoretically, lifetimes to do. Here is why, and I bold so that all can see it easily and not overlook it, not as a way of yelling at the OP, which I feel no need to do.


The PC's character is either chosen or exceptionally gifted. A prodigy, a genius of sorts, a savant. Like Anakin Skywalker with his unusual stength in the Force, like Albus Dumbledore and Tom Riddle/Voldemort, both of whom, within the lore of their mythos, could perform spells by their mid teenage years that most of their best proffessors and even highly skilled ministry wizards could not manage. One of Dumbledores's aged professors was quoted of saying that, even as an early adolescent in his first years at the wizarding school, "HE DID THINGS I'D NEVER SEEN DONE WITH A WAND!" and no, for those of you who are zealouts of Sanguine, she was not reffering to anything OTHER than magical displays.

Of course, one could always role play as something akin to Gandalf, the Avatar of a Divine Spirit, in this case one of the Ada, Aedra or Daedra. . . full of power but relearning much lost in the translation to semi mortal flesh.

But one needn't have so lofty, or Holy Immortal a background as old Gandalf. The atypical power of Vader, the rare genius of Albus or of Riddle, the uncommon wisdom of Solomon, etc. etc. is sufficient to be smarter than the average bear and even cooler than the average cat.


There have always been anomalous wonderkind. There are 9 year olds with an almost intuitive talent for problem solving, math, languages etc. that allows them to put professors and professionals to shame. Its rare, but it happens. The PC is given the potential to be such a one. He/she is plainly labled special and chosen, and if the player desires, you can play him/her as exactly that. Under these conditions it is in no way immersion breaking or unrealistic that a chosen/genius/savant/prodigy of a character would level exceptionally quickly, outperforming masters who have devoted years to a given craft but who simply do not possess the innate talent of the PC.

That said, yoiu don't HAVE to play as a genius, and you can make your leveling very slow going indeed, and even find ways to drain and damage your skills. . . permenantly if you like. Like that movie version of The Shadow where Alec Baldwin permenantly disables the Kahn decendents telekenitic and psychic powers by injuring a key area of the other's brain.

You know.... it's an odd thing in light of all the ranting about how "arbitrary" other aspects of the game supposedly are, but I find levels to be the most arbitrary and nonsensical aspect of RPGs. I think it's undeniable that every person possesses a specific amount of strength, for instance, but I understand that others (for reasons that elude me) insist that such is not the case. But I sincerely hope that NOBODY could assert that we possess "levels." That is a wholly fictitious thing that's just been wedged into games, and I would think that if the goal was really to eliminate numbers that have no real world significance, that should be the first to go.

To me - individuals possess attributes and talents and gain skills and abilities. That's the process in the real world, so it should be the process in a roleplaying game. That's what defines (at least in that context) the character. "Levels" are entirely and completely unrealistic and imaginary.

And it amuses me that I never see any of the people who rail about these other purportedly "imaginary" and "arbitrary" numbers make so much as a peep about levels.

Personally, I think that skill increases should work seamlessly and entirely in the background and should only be communicated to the player through actions. You know that your weapon skill has improved when you hit a troll and do more damage than you used to do. And I think that "perks" should only be available as specific skills learned from in-game trainers, which trainers will only agree to train you if you possess sufficient skill already. And I think that "levels" should go away completely, but that attributes should return and be much more complex in their effects and be relatively immutable. Those things just make sense to me.

The whole process of popping you out of character to say, "Congratulations! Your one-handed skill is now 67! You're now level 31! You get to tick a box on the perk list!" is just ludicrous and should go away. "Leveling" should just be a progression in skills and abilities, without the wholly fictional number attached to it.

In my opinion, of course......

Well I don't think I quite fall in the the ranters about number crowd(though I might) but I agree, I don't play TES for numbers I can see a future were you just get better at stuff over time, where you can see that your swinging a sword better(because the animation system is that advanced). TES keeps moving closer to want I want, a fully realized world I am play in that will react correctly to my actions, I want the holodeck(or at least the sitting holodeck, be tiring to play standing and fighting for so long).

I very much enjoy you can now level up by increasing skills that were considered "minor skills" in Oblivion. So now if I find another skill useful other then what I've been using, I can benefit both ways by increasing it.

i am obsorbing the force from my enimes like in KoToR 2!

The races will likely have their own bonuses in terms of perks, skills, powers, and abilities, so that will certainly help

It would be nice to enter in a class name for the sake of having the title, even though there are no classes. A small thing, but I think it counts.

The only thing that worries me is that our damage (from spells and weapons) doesn't seem to be affected by our level. Once one has mastered a skill and all damage related perks, will leveling beyond that point be worth it?

Same. Whenever my level reaches a multiple 10 (be it a skill or overall level), I get a nice sense of accomplishment.


And now a perk.



As for customization, in Oblivion I'd give it a 4. I think it will be deeper in Skyrim and earn a 5.

It represent progression. Its scale in terms of logical progression (being let out of the prison a newb and within a year or less becoming a demigod)? Wonky, sure, but its a game.

I think of leveling as my character gaining experience.

I have mixed opinions about the leveling so far. I don't much care about classes being gone, but I can't say I care for this increased leveling speed. I have always found in every one of their games that leveling was far too fast to start with, speeding it up doesn't sit well with me. I'm also a bit weary of the complete removal of attributes too. I understand that perks can possibly handle the same functions but it would have been great if they had kept attributes to handle the same things but have them level automatically based on what skills you use just like the nGCD mod for oblivion and used perks to supplement skills with special abilities rather than just the boosts that attributes+skills provided before.

Character customization isn't something we have alot of information on yet but I'd wager it is fairly good so I voted 4.

my general view on levelling is that its [censored] concept in most games. i dont mind so much my character getting stronger, i do mind my character becoming stronger than every other NPC in the game within a very very short timespan. NPCs that have been supposedly archmages, or great warriors fall before my characters like butter before a hot knife...........and how long did it take to get my character from a nobody in prison to the equivalent of a megatron.......about 2 or 3 ingame months. that is [censored] up and completely inconsistent in my view.

the best games let you become more powerful but always have someone that has been around far longer than you and can cast a wicked spell that you could never hope to create cause they are thousands of years old.

i am glad they added perks though and i wont miss attributes to be honest they were completely meaningless in TES games because you coud master everything by the end of the game anyways short of using mods like i did. having to choose 50 out of 280 perks forces you to become a specialized character. im very much in favor of forced specialization and NO RESPECS. think before you choose and if you choose wrong then tough [censored]. either change it with the console or start over.

The problem with leaving classes out, no matter how you try to look at it, is the early game distinction that my mage should be better at using magic then using a two handed sword. My theif should be better at sneaking then it is with casting healing spells, and my warrior should be better with 2 handed weapon then it is at lock picking. Skyrims system hower allows for MUCH greater distinction the further along you play.

Id rather have a balance of both. Something like keeping it how it is, but letting you pick (or create) a class, each class having 5 main skills and those 5 getting a small (5 point?) boost and doing absolutely nothing else. This allows for early game customization without really having much effect on the actual game. The class name should also be allowed to be edited at any time, in case you feel you want to go in a different direction partway through.

No it would be nicer you could change your title throughout the game in case you decide to go down a different path after a while or something

Agreed "levels" should be streamlined out and skill values should disappear from view.

I completely agree with the whole gaining and regaining experience thing. Let's face it, you weren't a demigod when you were thrown into jail, but you're not going to be as good as you were before jail after getting out. In that sense, you regain experience and then gain even more.

Classes are a useless feature. I do what I do because I want to do it, not because my class tells me that I should. I'd be fine with the whole "choose your class to get a starting bonus and that's it" thing, but again I believe that to be useless. Just have a starting exam or something similar to the G.O.A.T. Maybe even something similar to the beginning of Daggerfall, where depending on your answers you would start with certain equipment and higher skills.

I hate the idea of levels, but they make a lot of things easier to keep track of. I'd much rather have realistic increases, but sometimes it's just not possible without levels (especially for tabletops...). I shouldn't be adding five points to something when I gain a level, the five points should be distributed depending on what I do, but that eventually becomes very complicated and hard to play out without some sort of number to keep track of things. When levels are needed, leveling up means getting better. You're certainly not getting worse, after all!

Skyrim looks like it's done a good job with deleting the attributes and replacing them with health, magika, and fatigue, because that's really what they boiled down to in the end. Strength made you stronger and you could carry more stuff...aren't your weapon skills supposed to represent damage? Increasing max encumbrance is a different story, but I'll get to that later. Intelligence just raised your magika, easily replaced. Wisdom made you more resilient to spells and made you regenerate magika faster, easily replaced. Speed made you run faster...easily replaced or removed. Agility increased your damage with bows, your balance (whatever that meant...), and your fatigue, which is easily replaced. Endurance raised your health, through and through. Easily replaced. As for Luck, nobody is really sure what that even did by the time crits were removed. Easily replaced. The only problems I could see would be a same run speed / jump height and no way to increase max encumbrance, but everything else seemed mostly useless.

Character creation looks good so far, so I'll give it a 4, but I won't have a real answer for that until I play the actual game.

Sorry if I seem like a mixed jumble of fruits on this one.