What I Don't Understand

Post » Sat May 28, 2011 12:44 pm

The members of the Tribunal Temple, including the Gods themselves often speak of how they are not strong enough to storm Red Mountain and wipe out Dagoth Ur. They say that they once sent yearly expeditions inside the Ghostfence to ensure things didn't get out of hand.
Think about it. Vivec and Almalexia (not counting Sotha Sil) could probably easily kill Dagoth Ur... Plus all of his minions!
Why is this? Did the Devs not want to make the Gods too "Godly"?
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Antony Holdsworth
 
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Post » Sun May 29, 2011 2:57 am

I think this suits better of in the beloved Lore section my dear friend.

But would they want to put Ur out of the picture? That's the true question, since if they did... who would their next arch enemy be?
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Rachell Katherine
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 10:56 am

I think this suits better of in the beloved Lore section my dear friend.

But would they want to put Ur out of the picture? That's the true question, since if they did... who would their next arch enemy be?


I see. So they kept him around for political power?
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Marie
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Have you finished the game? Did you see what happened to the Tribunal gods once Dagoth Ur was gone?
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Hayley O'Gara
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 11:06 am

Since you have helped me....

THe Tribunal once went for annual refreshing of there power from the heart. Until Dagoth Ur awoke once more. He has some ability to tap directly into the heart without need of the tools, though the lack of them does somewhat prevent him from tapping further into it.

The Tribunal are rechargeable batteries. Whereas he is plugged directly into it. And the fact that he has the place under domination prevents the Tribunal from reaching the heart to recharge, so he is more powerful.
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Stacey Mason
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 5:54 pm

@Dilvish
I have finished the game but I don't understand what you are referring to. You mean how they self destructed. Went insane Ect?

@Blackhand
Yeah, that's how it should be. But if you were to go into the Morrowind engine and use the console with PlaceAtPC and then started combat with Ur Vs. Vivec and Almalexia , the two Tribunal would certainly win. They're stats were set higher than Dagoths. I am guessing that the devs assumed you would be facing Ur at a lower level than Almalexia.
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Mark Hepworth
 
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Post » Sun May 29, 2011 1:43 am

But if you're to go by the stats in the editor, then only Mehrunes Dagon's legs can be chopped at/stunned.

That argument is quite fellacious when talking about fluffy stuff.
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[Bounty][Ben]
 
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Post » Sun May 29, 2011 1:40 am

The members of the Tribunal Temple, including the Gods themselves often speak of how they are not strong enough to storm Red Mountain and wipe out Dagoth Ur. They say that they once sent yearly expeditions inside the Ghostfence to ensure things didn't get out of hand.
Think about it. Vivec and Almalexia (not counting Sotha Sil) could probably easily kill Dagoth Ur... Plus all of his minions!
Why is this? Did the Devs not want to make the Gods too "Godly"?

They could have stormed the mountain, and as you say they've done it n the past, the problem is that Ur keeps coming back. As of Morrowind, the Tribunal aren't organized or powerful enough it seems, and Ur is naturally less-than-full-potential in-game just because that's the way it has to be in order to let you win.
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marie breen
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 5:16 pm

@Dilvish
I have finished the game but I don't understand what you are referring to. You mean how they self destructed. Went insane Ect?


Exactly. Dagoth Ur had barricaded himself in the heart chamber. The only way to finish him was to destroy the Heart of Lorkhan. That was the main power supply for the Tribunal gods too. Once it was destroyed, their time as god kings was also finished. If they had joined forces and managed to destroy Dagoth Ur themselves, the result would be the same. I don't think they were all so willing to give up their power.
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Alexx Peace
 
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Post » Sun May 29, 2011 12:59 am

@Dilvish
I have finished the game but I don't understand what you are referring to. You mean how they self destructed. Went insane Ect?

@Blackhand
Yeah, that's how it should be. But if you were to go into the Morrowind engine and use the console with PlaceAtPC and then started combat with Ur Vs. Vivec and Almalexia , the two Tribunal would certainly win. They're stats were set higher than Dagoths. I am guessing that the devs assumed you would be facing Ur at a lower level than Almalexia.

thats a matter of stats though, and doesn't necessarily reflect who was more powerful then the other. Also, both the expansions seemed to have been intended for higher level characters, and its simply a matter of keeping up the difficulty that Almalexia has better stats.
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Beat freak
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 2:58 pm

Another little thing: It was arguably much easier for the Nerevarine to storm Red Mountain than it would have been for the Tribunal. Dagoth Ur basically wanted you to make it; he didn't launch any counterstrike or mount a defense against you, you really didn't face much resistance. I'd imagine the scenario would have been much different had the Tribunal attempted it.
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Crystal Clear
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 11:40 am

Luagar said it already, Dagoth Ur kept coming back. They probably did destroy his body in the past, and he came back, again and again.
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Roisan Sweeney
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 2:36 pm

Ok. That makes sense. It was (Lore wise) because the Tribunal was rather fond of power and not quite ready to give up political reign, and (Game wise) because the player would fight Alma at a much higher level than they would face Ur.
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Lloyd Muldowney
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 2:53 pm

Don't forget that when Dagoth decided he was sick of his yearly spanking session and ambushed the Tribunal he had with him the six Ash Vampires - his long dead brothers (wether biological or metaphorical) that he had raised from the deads and imbued with a hefty dose of the Hearth's power.

Here's how I think it happened : Dagoth Ur knew he was no match for the Tribunal acting together. So he deliberately made himself a punching bag, while discretely building his strength and allies. He probably made it easier for the Tribunal by sticking to the Hearth chamber ('precioouus'). Letting the Tribunal grow confident he was a moronic nuisance rather than a threat. And taking a good mesure of their power.
But when he felt ready, he didn't wait there but instead organized n ambush they didn't expect, wth a force he knew was strong enough to beat them. Which it did.

Without the hearth to replensih their power, all he had to do was to wait. what's a few decades after moe than one thousand years ? He wasn't in any sort of hurry and could affod to wiat until he had Akuhlakan up and running

Note : even f the Tribunal was ready to give it's power, taking out the Hearth of Lorkhan (or more accurately the enchantments binding it) requires Kagrenac's tools. An two out of the three had fallen into his hands. Though luck...
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Danger Mouse
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 12:01 pm

They could have stormed the mountain, and as you say they've done it n the past, the problem is that Ur keeps coming back. As of Morrowind, the Tribunal aren't organized or powerful enough it seems, and Ur is naturally less-than-full-potential in-game just because that's the way it has to be in order to let you win.



Remember this other all-important factoid:

It's been so many years since the Tribunal bathed in the light of the Heart Chamber that their god powers are nearly diminished. They're running at a tiny fraction of their full power and probably don't have access to some of their abilities at all. They may not even be able to come back from the dead at this point. Ur, on the other hand, lives in the Heart Chamber and while he lacks the tools he can tap into the power supply to some limited degree without them.

Vivec also stated that it takes all of his time and concentration to keep the Ghostfence up. He can not physically leave his Palace because his brother and sister abandoned hope long ago and left it all on him - a heavy burden. Vivec is the Atlas of the game, holding the weight of the world on his shoulders. The second that fence goes down, blighted horrors and ash priests flood Vvardenfel, preying on innocent people. Vivec wouldn't allow that.

That's why a Hero is needed.
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Kate Murrell
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 1:56 pm

On the issue of the the Tribunal losing battery power, I think it is (more prudent) better to be seen more that Ur is getting stronger, rather than Almsivi getting "weaker." Once a God, always a God? That's why the Dragon broke, right? Does AKA lose a little bit of his strength every time there's a break? We're talking Lorkhan here, not the puny mantella.
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Alina loves Alexandra
 
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Post » Sun May 29, 2011 1:28 am

On the issue of the the Tribunal losing battery power, I think it is (more prudent) better to be seen more that Ur is getting stronger, rather than Almsivi getting "weaker." Once a God, always a God? That's why the Dragon broke, right? Does AKA lose a little bit of his strength every time there's a break? We're talking Lorkhan here, not the puny mantella.



I'd be inclined to agree with you, but I remember game dialogue itself suggesting that they were weaker than they once were. I believe Vivec mentions it during your little talk as part of the MQ. They're gods, yes, but they're not like other gods in the universe - not like the real gods. They're simply borrowing the abilities of a god in the same way the player borrows Sheogorath's or Umaril borrows Meridia's. Vivec stated that the trip to Red Mountain was to refresh their powers in the Heart Chamber. There had to be a practical reason for this dangerous pilgrimage. They would not have done this if they did not believe themselves to need such recharging.
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Big mike
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 1:07 pm

They're simply borrowing the abilities of a god in the same way the player borrows Sheogorath's or Umaril borrows Meridia's.


Except you can become Sheog.
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sarah simon-rogaume
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 8:56 pm

Except you can become Sheog.


Fair point..but only after Jyggalag is banished. While he's still there you hold the Office and the Symbols but aren't in fact a Daedric Prince. In a way that's sort of a similar concept to the Tribunal who tried to use the Missing God's heart to imitate a progression of the Good Daedra's powers. You're plugged into the Font of Madness and channel ancient powers of the Sphere but until old Jygg is banished from the realm you ain't Sheogorath.
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Spooky Angel
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 4:48 pm

The thing is though, the Sphere is the Prince. The et'Ada are concepts, a role you that play and by playing long enough, become. Think James Bond.

You're thinking of the Daedra too much as real world people that posses super-natural real estate rather then thoughts given shape and power in the mind of mad-dreamer.
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Lavender Brown
 
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Post » Sun May 29, 2011 1:34 am

Yeah, that's how it should be. But if you were to go into the Morrowind engine and use the console with PlaceAtPC and then started combat with Ur Vs. Vivec and Almalexia , the two Tribunal would certainly win. They're stats were set higher than Dagoths. I am guessing that the devs assumed you would be facing Ur at a lower level than Almalexia.


http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation Essentially, the gameplay of games doesn't always accurately reflect the story, the power levels characters have in gameplay not accurately reflecting what they have in the story is one possible case. This is probably usually for balance, especially if it's in the case of a player character being stated to be so powerful that the enemies in the game wouldn't be any challenge at all, or because some bosses, if they were as powerful as the story says, would be so difficult as to make the game not fun. In this case, it's probably because Dagoth Ur is the final boss, so he needs to be weak enough for the player to be able to defeat him (though I'd say that once you've actually made him killable, he was weaker than he needs to be.) Whereas Vivec was not a character you had to kill, so he could be made stronger. In the case of Almalexia, since she was the final boss of an expansion aimed at higher level characters than the original main quest, gameplay demands that she be stronger than Dagoth Ur. Bethesda couldn't have just written the Tribunal to actually be stronger than Dagoth Ur in the plot, as that would undermine the purpose of the main quest. If the Tribunal could handle Dagoth Ur, Morrowind wouldn't need a prophesied hero to kill him.
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Anthony Santillan
 
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