Never heard of anything like that

No..I think you got confused.

I believe it's been theorized before that the stronger a conjurer's soul is the more capable he or she is of controlling the more dangerous Daedra or Undead he or she summons.(not something that's represented by any statistic in-game,but it can be argued with a person with a higher mastery of Conjuration as well as a deeper magicka pool has a stronger soul level than the average hedge wizard or pauper.)

So a person with a "Grand soul" like Divath Fyr (again, game mechanics don't allow this to be represented for various reasons but it seems logical) can easily control Dremora Lords and the like.

The "Preparation of Corpse" book talks about creating the permanent undead (the ones which do not dissapear/die in less then 2 minutes), not the conjured undead.
Also, all summoning spells seem to be connected with Oblivion. You summon daedra from there, summon weapons and armour from there and probably summon the undead from there (Oblivion planes are not filled with deadra's only, there are animals, monsters, men, mer and undeads there as well).

What Mages Guild prohibates is creating permanent undead (especialy when the human soul is used), experimenting on humans souls and other experiments marked as immoral.

No matter what technicalities are involved, necromancy is a magic that rubs most peoples the wrong way. The notion that some gonk could dig up mommy dear from her grave to make an animated puppet of rotting meat out of her corpse, with what's left of her soul as a driving force, is definitively on the unpalatable side.

But it's nonthelsee a powerfull, which explains why the Empire hasn't outlawed it but keeps a firm eye on it.

No no no, that can't be right. Such non-daedra only exist on Nirn. Only daedra inhabit the planes of Oblivion.

Yes, I read about the Soul Cairn in Battlespire. I think that is different: they aren't undead, so much as, well, still dead. It seems like their souls were prevented from going to the Dreamsleeve. Perhaps they, not unlike daedra, gathered up stray bits of creatia to give themselves corporeal bodies (except the Wrathmen), the appearances of which reflected their state of misery.

Undead would be dead bodies re-animated -- but without souls (gameplay mechanics contradict this, unless 'soul trapping' is really just siphoning off the remaining soul energy powering a body).

What about the various fauna in SI? Surely not all of them are Daedra?

There's no reason to assume they're not, nor to assume that Daedra can't reproduce (especially since the only text addressing the subject is inconclusive); the only real difference between mortals and daedra is that the daedric soul doesn't lose its memory when it dies, whose to say that daedric soul's re-entrance process couldn't be augmented to come in some form of offspring...

Is there a known god/daedroth with whom necromancy is associated? I've never heard of that. Namira would be a good candidate, and also, strangely, Meridia. She can make Umaril immortal (is making mortals immortal not necromancy? what is the definition of undead?), and (her?) light is sometimes used by the ayleids to create welkynd stones. I've read in some in-game book (could someone confirm this?) that those stones cause the dead to raise in ayleid ruins. So maybe Meridia has a a split personality, just like sheo. Or perhaps she hates herself (meridia bears a special hatred for the undead) Probably just talk, though.

You mean the text http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/spiritofthedaedra.shtml, which explicitly states:


@Mala-ada: Meridia is opposed to the Undead. If she was ally to necromancers, then http://www.imperial-library.info/book_daedra/index1.shtml#meridia? Umaril became semi-daedric. In that sense, you can kill his body, but his daedric soul survives and doesn't get recycled through a Dreamsleeve. Eventually he'll just come back again.

Not sure why there are so many undead in the Ayleid ruins, that isn't really well explained. Not sure where you get the idea that Meridia is connected to the Welkynd stones. And no, I've never come across anything indicating that the welkynd stones have any connection to the whatsoever to the undead.

The only thing that gets to a closeness to being a "god" of necromancy was when Mannimarco became a moon in order to give Arkay the middle finger. Necromany is just another study of magicka, like destruction, alteration, restoration, etc. There really doesn't seem to be any god or daedra prince associated with it. I know tiny Molag Bal statues did appear in some necromancer caves, but that's probably become some wanted to be more of an enslaver. If you ask me, the necromacers in OB were horrifically done, and made to look like they were evil for the sake of being evil.


She seems to likes dark places and ugly things, but that doesn't mean she's hardcoe necromancer. Wouldn't surprise that she would employ some or use undead. I know Sheogorath does, and Meridia seems to comment other daedric lords use undead when you talk to her stature in OB.


Being the daedric prince of life energies and light kinda makes it hard to believe she would like the undead at all. Making someone immortal and making someone is undead are different. Being undead means that you died, and roseback as a lifeness corpse (no pulse, or other things associated with living). Being immortal means you still are living, breathing, have circulation, and other things associated that you are alive. Also, the welkynd stones are there to recharge magic reserves, not being life, and are not associated with Meridia. Instead, they seem to be a meteorite, that had been cut. I'd guess that they could be solid magicka or something.

As to why there are so much undead wandering everywhere? Necromancers that came in, rose some dead guys and left? Some really peeved Alyeids that refuse to completely go into the dreamsleeve? Don't know. Would rather believe they were there just to give the PC something to hack. I know in MW, the dead were purposely risen in tombs as to protect the graves by the Temple

I'll admit I neglected the source, it doesn't change anything though. That text is written by a Dremora in the service of Dagon, the 'huntsmen' in Battlespire (hence the whole "How We Think About Man" section), his perspective is limited. Chances are he doesn't have a clue how things work outside his clan, or at most Dagon's sphere.

Furthermore, I think its safe to say that the title of the article can be taken literally. When it says "We do not die. We do not fear death.", its talking about the spirit not dying, not the body which does indeed die. In the same way, in can be inferred that the line "We are not born, we have not fathers nor mothers, yet we have kin and clans." is likewise to be taken in the spiritual sense, meaning that their spirit was never born or created, they simply sprung from the Aurbis during the beginning time. On the other hand, their bodies do die, and they have to get a new one somehow.

In the same text you'll find it stated that "Destroy the Body, and the Animus is cast into The Darkness. But the Animus returns." What it doesn't state is how the Animus gets a new body upon its return. Almost everything in the Shivering Isles (Grummites, Baliwogs, Elytras) come from eggs, so as I said, I don't think its beyond possibility for the return process to have been augmented to use this as a tool for re-entrance. I'm not saying its the norm across Oblivion, but for the Shivering Isles it seems that it is...


And also if you want to think about it, why do Dremora/Golden Saints/etc take on forms with sixual organs in their own realms? Sure when their on Mundus you can argue that they do it for appearance sake, especially when dealing with mortals, but why do so in their own realm? Granted, this can probably just be attributed to game design...

It's also interesting how genders not only exist with them, but for the Aureal and Mazken, plays a role in their society.

It's not all that surprising when you consider how hierarchacal the Lesser Daedra's societies are structured. First among the more intelligent Daedra, in all our given examples their society is almost rigidly militaristic, which by its nature is hierarchacal. Then among the different Lesser Daedra, they're positions and roles are dictated and structured by a Daedric Prince. Not to mention the Daedra's maniacal obsession with the mortal realm.



Okay. But by that extension, then that means that every living thing in Oblivion has a Daedric immortal soul. Including the bloodgrass and harrada root. Okay, the counter-argument to that is 'Well why not?' And I admit I don't have a good reason right now. But it doesn't sit right with me. Probably having to do with the Daedra wanting something interesting and doing nothing but growing is very repetitive.

The Shivering Isles had not only quite a few mortal men and mer, but also had many mortal creatures, such as grummites and elytra.

Yes, but that doesn't really explain at all why male and female would play any role in that hierarchy, especially given that daedra can choose their appearance and could seemingly just switch - unless of course there's more to daedric six than appearance...

There's really no rationale for making the leap to plants - I'm not seeing how you're making that extension from my post... there's no reason to assume plants on Nirn or Oblivion have souls, so how is that relevant, or how can you make that extension?

Ok, I'll accept the gender-role thing.

My point was that if you don't draw the line between Oblivionic creations and Daedra at grummites, then where are you going to draw the line at?

So all in all what would you classify necromancy as, a magic school, an element (darkness?), or a combination of schools, or a combination of elements (e.g. Relmyna's flesh element in SI) i seem to recall while modding something that the spell used on mannimarco's staff to temporarily reanimate a person was of magic school conjuration so that would imply that necromancy has definite affilations with the conjuration school, however (and correct me if i am wrong) necromancy is not only the act of reanimating the deceased but the preparation of animation such as the preparation of the undead physcial vessel. There are traces of destruction and possibly even restoration to give 'life' to death. This would show that necromancy is not a school but something altogether different like enchanting or spell making. In the question of it's element i am completely confused, it can be considered the opposite and at the same time similar to the element of flesh, like flesh you are 'creating' life (not sure exactly how it works as i am not an expert in neither lore nor necromancy) you give life to something which doesn't have it. Conversely where you take air and bone and blood to make the flesh element, you take these things away from body when you reanimate it. Darkness/evil is probably present as an element however necromancy is not solely attributed to these alone, undead can be imbued with other elements such as frost, fire and lightning to create even more powerful guards for the necromancer, this shows that whatever element necromancy can be attributed to, it is very lucid making it compatible with many other elements and powers. I urge everybody to confirm and argue my points as i am truly intrigued regarding the dark arts, aka necromancy.

I always thought that Necromancy was some devilish combination of Conjuration and Mysticism?

This is very possible, further research shows that Clavicus Vile's dog was once a scamp, i think in morrowind, this piece of information can be inferred to mean that daedra do not have a fixed vessel but do have a fixed soul/spirit, the strength of spirit can be used to enter a stronger vessel and when that vessel breaks the soul returns to it's starting point to choose it's vessel, e.g. a greater soul can be used to enter a petty, lesser, or greater vessel, but not a grand vessel (if we use the oblivion soul gem ranks).

This does explain the variety of shape and form of daedra, however it does not explain why they go into these alien vessels, why don't they stay in their default daedric vessels e.g. scamps, daedroths clannfears etc. One possible explanation is that these vessels are actually created by the conjurer, what they believe the vessel to be is what they are right down to the very texture of the skin. However what of the novice conjurer who has never seen a scamp or skeleton, what will his summons look like? Please discuss these points further and don't forget my last post.

No, summoned skeletons are not daedra. Why? Because that would be insanely stupid.
Why must people always try to make up a big story around very simple and obvious game mechanics?

By the way, "Black Arts on Trial" even explains it:
"When a student of Conjuration summons a guardian ghost, he is touching on the School of Necromancy. When a student of Enchantment uses a trapped soul, he too may be considered guilty of a Black Art."
So no, he's not simply summoning a daedra that LOOKS like a ghost. It IS a ghost.

My guess is that the summoning of a ghost involves "finding" a ghost mentally and than changing its location from there to here. The first part, the locating of a certain undead, can be considered to be Necromancy (of some sort), while the latter part is Mysticism. "The Schools are intertwined". However, making the spirit obey you is the part that makes the spell one of the school of Conjuration.

Why is such a spell still allowed in the Mages Guild?
Quote from Black Arts on Trial: "[...] the standard spells of each School have passed the proof of time." The part of the spell that IS Necromancy is not considered to be dangerous Necromancy. That makes sense if the undead you're summoning hasn't actually been created by you, but has been there (on Nirn, somewhere) before already; all the mindset, philosophy, whatever that makes Necromancy so dangerous is not needed to perform such a spell, you merely use one harmless aspect of it.

Black arts talks about ghosts, but the problems with the skeletons.

Why would the skeletons be daedra and the ghosts not? That'd be even more stupid.

You're right about the skeletons being summoned being nothing but game mechanics.

The problem is with the second part of your post, the Black Arts on Trial does not explain anything about Skeletons.

Basically Necromancers are evil because they PERMANANTLY summon undead, and Conjurers PERMANANTLY summon Daedra...

As opposed to regular mages...

Teekeus PERMANENTLY summons a scamp... it's pretty annoying...

proweler - You're right, there was a lot of guessing involved. However, I used the Black Arts for only two statements:
1. "Summoned" (whatever it means) undead are never daedra
2. The availability of Summon Undead spells at Mages Guild vendors is explained by their harmlessness - those spells that are sold in the game are such that they do not corrupt the mind etc.

I didn't use the Black Arts for the rest of my post - and that's where the problem between Summon Ghost and Summon Skeleton takes place.
My assumption is that Summoning consists of three parts: Sensing the creature/thing you want to summon, "teleporting" it to you, and "binding" it/making it obey you. The very first part is either a little bit of Necromancy (Summon Undead spells), or a little bit of... well, something like "Daedra Knowledge" (Summon Daedra spells). (Wasn't there even a skill like that in Daggerfall?).

So in effect, my guess is that everything you summon has been there before. The skeletons, the ghosts, the daedra. You don't MAKE skeletons undead, you simply USE undead skeletons. Like I said, it's a wild guess. But it would explain why this spell is not considered to be dangerous to your mind - you don't delve into the whole necromancy thing, you just take an already existing undead and make it obey you.

I must admit, though, that it does not explain why finding a Summon Undead scroll in the chest of a certain Mages Guild member in Balmora proves that she's a necromancer (it's actually even contradictory).