In Tamriel, for what i know, most of the area has a banishment on the art of Necromancy. However, in the book The Black Arts On Trial, Hannibal Traven has stated that only certain people are allowed to do it. "This may only been done by rare individuals who have proven themselves both highly skilled and highly cautious, and then only with my express permission and supervision. " Giving a person this power is like giving a daedra a key to Tamriel, too much power can cause someone to change, and go mad. Isnt that what happened to the Dagoth Ur? I think they should totally just banish it , OR allow people to study it, they are doing it anyway. anyone agree?

What about the possibility of studying it to combat it, a pursuit Traven mentions literally in the same parargraph you got one of those quotes from?

And do you honestly think that would stop people, let alone Mages' Guild members, from stopping its practice/study completely?

Ya but, if you study it for combat, another mage can just summon someone else to fight that, and then its basically fighting Summoned creature with another Summoned creature.

and they will never be able to stop the practice completely, so whats the point of banishing it?

...you DO realize necromancy is...necromancy right? Leaving something like that unchecked would be incredibly irresponsible.

yea it is, but it works both ways, if one can summon something, another can summon something to destroy it

Actually, necromancy isn't really illegal (except for Morrowind), and wasn't even looked down upon too badly until Traven took power (except in Morrowind).

And even in Morrowind they have their own acceptable form, they just don't call it necromancy...

Necromancy has nothing to do with summoning. Nothing at all. Many Necromancers in the games summon undead to assist them in combat but their main art is reanimating dead things to serve them, usually in combat. Most of the skeletons, wraiths and zombies in Necromancer lairs aren't summoned - they were created by the Dark Arts.

And that's what confuses most people. Most, if not all, Necromancers are also conjurers, so they already know how to summon undead things to do their bidding. It's not the conjuration/summoning that's the issue, it's the reanimation of dead things, it's the research into the foul immortality that is lichdom, which is the ultimate goal of any necromancer.

Change a name, take away teeth, and voila, perfectly acceptable practice. If, after Traven's eventual and predictable heroic sacrifice plot "twist" Necrmancy is still barred by the guild, academic necrmancers outside the guild will continue to practice it, as before, and even those in guild rules will likely adopt the familiar aproach of the temple, right?

Wait. How can you conjure/summon anything aside from Daedra? I thought conjuring involved, you know, grabbing a Daedra from their home on Oblivion and having them fight for you. In other words, the creature came from somewhere. Likewise, if you summon, say, an animated skeleton.... well, it had to have been animated by someone, right? So, if you are using a byproduct of necromancy... isn't that almost as bad as doing the deed yourself?

EDIT: here we go:

- http://www.imperial-library.info/zeph/tes_tre_3/c.shtml#c

In game it's possible to summon things other then Daedra and spirits, such as zombies, skeletons, a dwemer steam centurion and a bears and wolves. Though each of them have some hints around them that suggest that summoning them is a gameplay substitute for something else.

For example, according to the Preparation of the Corpse skeletal warriors take some prepare. You've got to strip the meat from the body, bind the bones and animate the corpse. Then you've got a skeleton. The "Call Bear" and "Call Wolf" spells from Bloodmoon suggests that you are calling a Bear from the near by environment and make it run to your aid, but actually just summons one. Oblivions strict separation of Necromancers and Conjurers also seems to imply that even though all spells are classed as part of conjuration, necromancy is not.

So when we're not talking about Daedra, conjuration is used as a substitute. Which makes sense as in terms of game play the difference between a Deadra, Skeleton or Bear are minimal. They're just the hired help that keeps the attention away from you.

Lorewise however, it the differences are huge it's best to ignore the actual summoning non-Daedra and replace it with the intent instead.

I seem to recall in the back of my brain somewhere mention that Necromancy crosses the disciplines of magic, undeniably existing, but encompassing elements of Conjuration, Mysticism, Alteration, and Restoration.

I don't even see why anyone even bothers with necromancy. Why not just summon Daedra? They're a good deal smarter, and better than just a meat shield, and I say that because there can scarcely be any any use for dead servants beyond that. Lichdom works, but aren't there better ways to immortality besides turning yourself into a hunk of rotting flesh? But I suppose we don't have much of an example of useful necromancy yet in the games. They existed solely as villains in Oblivion who didn't have anything to do but hang around in old forts with their creations.

Summoned daedra don't always play nice.

Though never really seen to happen, only spoken word of mouth, inexperienced mages do have issues with daedra breaking their control, and bashing their former master to death or wrecking the place up. It really does take a good deal of effort to summon, let alone control a daedra.

In addition, daedra have the issue of not being able to remain indefinite. While a mage can use loopholes to get a daedra though summoning, eventually the daedra is forced back. The only real way to keep it bound to Mundus, is if you are either Vivec, or bind it to something (I forgot the actually process, but there is a book that explains it, and it also involves the daedra willing to go though the process).

With the undead, they tend to last indefinitely, or until their master is killed. In addition, multiple can be summoned and kept indefinitely. The undead don't really seem to have many, if any, issues with suddenly attacking their master, which is a big plus. However, it should be noted undead beasts have been known to attack inexperienced necromancers, and work at best as a guard dog. Humanoid undead tend to be preferred, due to being able to complete more complicated tasks, while remaining mindless and obedient.

As to why someone would want to become a lich? Depends on the person. Necromancers that chose to become liches tend to be really powerful wizards already, and usually do it to extend their life to become immortal. This way, they can continue their research, practice their magic capabilities and become more powerful, protect dangerous and powerful artifacts from getting into anyone's hands (as seen in Tribunal), or other reasons. You don't have to be evil or completely immoral or amoral to be a lich, though a lot of liches tend to be in the amoral category. An example would be that one undead guy in Bloodmoon, who, even though exiled from the Skaal but still, tried to warn them of an impending attack from daedra. Even though he was still an outcast and generally disliked, he still contained the daedra, and turned himself into a lich so he could continue holding the barrier as he become too old and frail.

http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/corpse_preparation.shtml is a really good source for most of your necromatic needs

Okay... So, if I understand what you say, then the whole "conjure [undead creature]" is, lore-wise, the manufacturing of an undead? In other words, the intent behind the hand-wavy game mechanic is that the spell caster is creating an undead creature? If that's the case... well, I can understand why such spell would be present in Morrowind, where there is necromancy-with-consent-of-the-deceased. However, in Cyrodiil, during the events of TESIV, it makes little sense why such spells are available and sold by mages of the Mages Guild. Should this incongruity be overlooked as a developer oversight?

Could be that Traven is actually really dumb, and ascended to the position just like the Champion of Cyrodiil (AKA fighting a bunch of people, and never really casting any magic spells) :shrug:

There's more than just making monsters and becoming a lich - for example the Telvanni using necromantic means of extending their lives.

Very well, you've got me there. I'd tolerate the odd walking corpse instead of a scamp or clannfear ripping me to shreds. And I really wish the Telvanni had gone into more of an explanation of how exactly they extended their lifespans by means of necromancy.

Well, since you have to ask, you do not deserve to know how!

Was it Daggerfall or Arena where the Conjuration spell was so vastly powerful that you could summon normal weapons and items from anywhere in the world? Like, non-daedric swords? I never actually played those games but there was a lengthy thread about Conjuration around here once.

Anyway, we came to a sort of consensus in that thread that when a Conjurer "summons" a Skeleton, a ghost or a zombie, he's actually teleporting it in from another part of the physical world. It's not a Daedra in undead form or anything, according to this theory.

I have another theory, that a few people also claim is a vague possibility, and that theory is that the "undead" you summon actually ARE daedra, bound in the shape of undead creatures in much the same way you can force them into the shape of armor and weapons. This could also explain how mundane animals like wolves and bears can be summoned in the games.

About conjuring Undead - I always thought that undead summons were from the Soul Cairn.

Is this not the case?

It wouldn't explain the corporeal ones with actual bodies like skellies or zombies, unless it was a form of teleportation. Where do those bodies come from? I guess that argument would apply to any non ghost summon though.

Although I'm unable to recall the thread I read it from, I heard that conjurers add a bit of their own soul to their summons, which then returns to them when the summon is complete. In a sense, their own soul is the life of the summon, which also limits the number of summons a conjurer can have. But this may be wrong.