But in http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/pilgrim_path.shtml, it is stated that it was originally a moon of Nirn.

Given that legend says that Sheogorath might have hurled Lie Rock towards Nirn, insane speed seems like the perfectly correct term.

That makes more sense. Although it was said that he "tricked" it, he probably actually threw it. Even if he probably does talk to rocks.

Yea, it does. I remembered that story, but I wasn't sure on where I read it and whether it was real lore or just forum speculation.
(And Vivec should never be trusted anyway)

An obvious question, but why can't they just break up the rock into tiny little bits that would do no damage? They seem to have no problems building inside it, so the material is obviously not that tough.

God I hate lore.
I used to love Vivec. But he's such an a-hole.


Meh... Dagoth was cooler anyway.

All I really care for is this; Vivec is a liar, a cheat, a phony, an opportunist, and a thief. Take what he says with lots of salt, in my opinion.

Then doesn't it just svck to occupy an infintessimally small piece of a world that has become him?

Mastery indeed. He lied to you as he enabled you to do the things that would make you famous, deprived you of your choice to kill him by egging you on, then tricked you when you called his bluff and finally the [censored] the one who sent you.

Geez, lay off Vivec. He did a lot for Morrowind. As for the Muatra thing, I prefer to think of it as simply stabbing a daedra with a spear. But then again, maybe it's just because I'm not a Freudian.

It's just the natural peevishness of running into some high-and-mighty NPCs who are five times more interesting than the PC bio you scribbled on the back of a napkin. :gun:

I'm having trouble with something here. Earlier in the thread someone mentioned the Ministry of Truth and how Nerevar was there when Vivec stopped it and blah blah blah.

Am I missing something here? The first time I went to Vivec City the Ministry was already there.... or did the Nerevarine have a case of Amnesia.

If this case is about Indoril Nerevar then there is another sort of paradox. Vivec was not a 'god' until AFTER Indoril was dead.

I'm completely lost.

According to Vivec, he stopped it thousands of years ago, but yes, he only became a god after Nerevar died, so part of the story could simply be Myth.

It says Nerevar, not Nerevarine. So yes, you could say it's a paradox. But the Sermons are timeless, like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_Return_%28Eliade%29#Cyclic_time. Each of the monsters Vivec defeats are symbolic, and before defeating each, Vehk enters the "the Provisional House at the Center of the Secret Door". The Provisional House is a space that is not a space, and the nature of the Secret Door can be as personal as the I of the Tower, since they appear to be related:

'Look at the majesty sideways and all you see is the Tower, which our ancestors made idols from. Look at its center and all you see is the begotten hole, second serpent, womb-ready for the Right Reaching, exact and without enchantment...The heart of the second serpent holds the secret triangular gate.'

The story of Lie Rock is about the Thing You Ate Last Night coming back to haunt you, just as the last of the monsters was something as intangible as his own childhood. But it so happens that the contents of Vehk's mind manifest themself in the real world, or he somehow brought about their reality, so we have artifacts as visible reminders of metaphoric events, like Lie Rock, which appropriately enough later became known as the Ministry of Truth.

It's much like the opening of Lord Vivec's Sword-Meeting with Cyrus-the-Restless: Mind you, this story isn't necessarily true, for no tale of Cyrus the Restless is true in its entire, and yet that has never really mattered. Indeed, you'll come to see that sometimes stories that aren't necessarily true can still sometimes win the day. And yet: Different rules apply to gods and demons and mad shapers.

Some others might have different opinions about this, but it's what I've managed to piece together from bits and pieces. But this is why the words of Vivec's detractors ultimately sound shallow. Yeah, he's a bastard. But there's a lot more to him than that.

Edit: Typo.

If Vivec lost his godliness, shouldn't the Ministry of Truth eventually collide with Vivec?

That would be if the action that stopped it would depend on Vivec's power, but as it depends on love of the people for Vivec, Vivec's power is not required to hold it up.
"I would have done so myself if I wanted, silly Hortator. I shall keep it there with its last intention intact, so that if the love of the people of this city for me ever disappear, so shall the power that holds back their destruction."

I think the general consensus here is that, upon becoming a god, Vivec rewrote the past so that he always had been a god. Hence Vivec = V'Vehk = Vehk and Vehk = mortal Vehk and god Vehk "who are the same being, yet are not save for one red moment".


I would go further and say that timelessness is part of the very definition of 'myth'. Otherwise, it's merely a nice story.


I'd rather say these two are the same thing. The contents of Vehk's mind are the real world (or, if you prefer, the real world exists in Vehk's mind). This is true of everyone, though, but it is Vehk's realisation that this is true that makes him special.


I'm resisting a powerful urge to ramble on about how this phrase applies to real-world religion: in particular how the historical existence or non-existence (or divine nature or lack of same) of certain prophets does not in any way affect the validity of their message...

You have it right. I resisted the urge to go into a digression about CHIM since I didn't want to overdo a post that was originally intended as only a short paragraph.

Continuing a tradition: Word 2

I feel sorry for the poor saps that will be inside the rock when Landfall happens.

You know, I feel sorry for those who're inside even when it's stable and stationary.

Especially if the myths about it being a giant sentient crazy turd are true. :wacko:

http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=821219#


Also, the story of Lie Rock, and vivec's halting it has many (poorly) veiled sixual themes.

Lie Rock is "born from Vivec's second aperture.", and his act of suspending it's decent makes the act of "piercing the second aperature forbidden"-- If we suppose that Lie Rock is a "Turd", and that Vivec's "Second Aperature" is his butt, (which is where turds come from) it stands to reason that homosixual male six is now forbidden after vivec jabbed his muatra into the lie rock. (Apparently Vivec didnt like it. )

Spear Biting is also "Forbidden" now, because of the Pomegranate Banquet. So, I guess feilatio is out too.


I suppose one could use these mythic precepts against these sixual practices, and use them to concoct some rather sanguine rituals of immense power, but I wont go there.

The whole sermons thing seems preoccupied with various sixual acts.


Still-- What is "Land Fall"?

People stop loving vivec -> Vivec's Giant Turd lands on Vvardenfell -> Nearly everyone dies.

But The Pilgrim's Path says that the Ministry was a moon, tricked by Sheogorath into falling onto Vivec City.

And what, exactly, would the Temple gain by telling the average lay Dunmer that their Ministry of Truth is mystical feces?

If they were trying to cover up the truth, the Sermons of Vivec wouldn't be lying around everywhere, they'd be banned.

Lie Rock is made from mundane material, is it not? The moons are made from Divine material that is ROTTING. (The moon's non-corporeal nature is easily seen in Morrowind.)

Lie Rock is Divine Refuse-- God Poop is mundane matter. It is no surprise therefor that it is a giant rock. Also, Vivec was in 'Giant form" when he poo'ed it.

The comment that it was a moon might therefor not be incorrect. The lie rock floated around out there in the sky for some time before Sheogorath threw it at Vivec.