I seriously doubt that we will see level scaling to the degree of Oblivion ever again. I think that Bethesda has learned alot since then.

I always kind of think of it in a DnD type of way.

You go to the swamp, there is chance that a Black Dragon comes forth from his lair that day and you run into him. But your more likely to see Troglodytes, cause there every where.

Same thing could happen with Skyrim you go high inot the mountains, you see elk and other creatures of that sort, you run into some pesky wolves, and then Bam a Remhoraz bursts from the earthas you have come to slose to its lair and decides to try to devour yuo whjole.


Fallout 3 was good, but in teh end I always felt like a god, probably because of the overpowered perks, but mainly because of bullet sponges.

I hate Morrowind's level scaling even more, level scaling although it is limited for most areas since creatures appear on certain levels but it doesn't completely erase the other creatures from that list, ex alits appear on roads on level 1 but kagouti much later but it doesn't override all the kagouti in the game there's still more kagouti than alit that is the kind of level scaling I like the best part of morrowind system :celebration:

Now the worst part BOSSES LEVEL ENEMIES SCALE TO YOUR LEVEL that is why it took this http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tribunal:Gedna_Relvel 30 Effing MINUTES TO KILL! :swear: since by default she is level 40 but past that she scales with the PC making her have uber stat when your level 71 t(he highest possible level obtainable in morrowind), so in a way morroiwnd had it's flaws.

oblivion on the other went over kill with scaling though no excuse.

FACT:ALl Elder Scrolls games have level scaling who knew?

Same here. Perks, I felt, were part of the problem, as well as the bullet sponges, but to me the biggest problem was the ridiculously fast leveling that came with it.

Why is it a must? If a group of weak goblins kidnapped a farmer... Why should their level change depending on the PC's?

If they are 2nd level opponents and the PC is 1st level, they are a challenge, but if the PC is 5th level then they are not so much of one. :shrug:
In an open game world I'd think there would be second level villains that are outmatched by the hero that shows up to thwart them.

*Just as there should be 23rd level villains that are more than over-matched for a 6th level hero who is just not ready. Wouldn't it be better for the game to employ leveled encounters instead of level matching? Such that the 2nd level goblins stay that way until defeated, but a 15th level PC allows the game to draw from a list of 15th level encounters. The difference here is that a 15th level bandit encounter need not be with 15th level bandits~ it could be two 20th level bandits that have no decent armor and only a bows and daggers. :shrug: An encounter pool could be tailored to be a challenge to a certain level PC, without it being even odds or being silly, (like a bandit in Glass Plate armor demanding pocket change from you with a $1000 axe).

In simple terms some people.. mostly warrior users... wanted every battle to be a challenge.... they wanted everything scaled up to your level.. they were .....

Most people on the other hand wondered why bethesada listened to a bunch of people who run around in smelly heavy armor and poke realy big things in the rump with glorified metal sticks.... :poke:

In the end bethesda learned that listening to drunks wearing garbage cans is a bad idea so we shouldnt ever see that again.

when your offing a boss in two hit's *cough**morrowind* (since certain bosses weren't scaled) it is no longer fun especially when you have uber stats and constant effect fortify enchanments.

Remember elder scrolls always had level scaling but not in the gross over-killing that is skyrim.

umbra was my favorite enemy in oblivion. too bad she was completely unique

I don't mind that. :shrug:
If the boss is a big fish in a little pond, and my PC is a big fish in the Sea... Tough.

Personally though I'd prefer that the game actively gauge the player & PC, and actively delay the encounter if the PC has no chance of wining; If the PC is more than a match, then it makes sense that the Boss may have obtained help by that point ~not become twice as powerful. This is a good example for my earlier suggestion of leveled encounters instead of leveled opponents.

Skyrim is designed to be played up to level 50 (after that, you start levelling very slowly and don't really get as much of a benefit). If I'm level 50, I should be offing all but the most fiercest enemies easilly. If I'm not, then what good was it to level? A weak boss should be weak, not magically get strong (or be replaced by something strong) because some omniscient thing noticed I got "better".

It's especially a problem for people like me, who aren't very good tactically speaking. I tend to need to get a couple levels higher to have a fair shake at enemies. But with level scaling, it makes sure I never get that extra edge I need because the enemies keep levelling as I try to get better. Level caps aren't really an answer because that means I just need to get above the cap before I can be effective.. the enemies may as well just be at the upper cap the whole time.

This can be fixed by taking inspiration from MMO's -

Outline "high level player" quests that are specific challenges for such players. Something special to work twoards being able to do, like lead an army or gain control of a town or something dramatic like that. Once the normal world and game conditions become easier, then start introducing advanced challenges that really put the characters, and player's, skills to the test.

Eventually though you'll become a god of everything, and that's effectively the "end game" - at that point you pretty much choose to dominate eveyrthing except for select "hero" encounters or something, or choose to start a completely new character.

Its true but I dont think the perks will be as ridiclous and I guess they are using a more Fallouty style level scaling so it should not be as bad.

There are four systems at work in Oblivion. Here is how they break down:


Loot Leveling - this controls when loot appears
Enemy Leveling - this controls when enemies appear
Loot Scaling - this controls the strength of loot once it has appeared
Enemy Scaling - this controls the strength of enemies once they have appeared

But with caves that have a level floor and a level ceiling, wouldn't that work nicer for you? If you're a level 5 that wanders into a cave that scales from 10 to 15, you'd still get pwned. If you're a level 11 that wanders into that cave, you could get monsters that range from 10 to 15, most of them being around 11. If your a 20 that wanders into that cave, you'll pwn anything that comes infront of you. You'll be able to level up high enough if your not good with tactics, monsters will kinda scale with you within reason so the game will never be one hit killing everything, but there will always be those places that you are not ready for untill you get to the end game that's around 50. If nothing scaled with you, you could just level up a few higher than what you need to kill is at, and you'll kill it. Its the same with a level floor or a ceiling, but with these the game will make it interesting even as you get stronger.

There will be cake walks, some middle gray areas due to level scaling, and then places that show you the true meaning of pain. I like it this way, but that's just my opinion.

An open game wouldn't be particulary open if it got lots of areas you can't go to because the enemies there have too high level. If certain areas had certain enemies and you could only follow one path, it may as well be a linear Bioware RPG like Jade Empire or whatever.

Gothic 2, for example, had this problem. You can't really explore the game world in the beginning of that game if that is what you want to do. If you try it, you're dead because there are extremely powerful enemies in all the directions except the one path you're supposed to take. Which totally kills the exploration aspect of the game, for which many TES fans are TES fans to begin with.

Which makes the game very linear in nature, and not really that much different to various linear Bioware games like Jade Empire. But funnily enough, Mass Effect 1&2, although fairly linear compared to RPGs, have the same extreme level scaling as Oblivion. Yet I never seen any complaints about that, kinda interesting.

That said, quest related enemies and bosses are a bit different, and not really a part of the "game world enemies", and could be treated in a different way. This is kinda how Morrowind did it, the game world enemies were level scaled, while the main quest enemies were not.

You can find elven armor at low level ut it require that you go far in the fighter guild quest fast. And yes Morrowind had level scaling of monsters and animals but not npc, downside of this was that level 10 bandits with iron daggers became pretty pathetic when you used daeric and was level 30. Morrowind also lacked high end enemies so at level 15 the game was easy, at level 20 you had to work hard to get killed.
In my opinion all the fixed loot in Morrowind was part of the reason the game was so easy.
Lots of guides told you how to get high end stuff at low level, and because the numbers of high end armours was limited you had to get them at the described locations.

As I understand Skyrim will use dungeons with enemies with different difficulty, you will have easy medium and hard ones.

Yes so the introduced the cute albino radscorpions, reavers and supermutant masters with broken steel. A bit overkill I would just add the fatman to the levelled weapon list. If it was 2% chance for a raider to carry a fatman you would take them more seriously

Equipment is very important, the guards are 10 level over you but they all dies in the batle of Bruma at level 20 because they have iron and chain armor and steel weapons. If you give them bound daerice weapon and armor they usually survive.
Is it only me or was equipment quality in Fallout 3 level scaled? Found that quality improved over time. That is a very subtle way of doing level scaling and worked well.

its an Oxymoron kinda thing, you level to become stronger BUT if everything levels to your level then your not really leveling at all !! so one o the most important things in an action RPG (leveling skills) becomes a useless endeavor which kills a core element in the game.

also it makes epic items not so epic since every rat will be wearing deadric Armour and wielding 2 deadric katanas :toughninja:

It's better than nothing, but it still doesn't solve the problem. As I said, since I'd need a few extra levels over the enemies, which I won't be able to get until after they hit the upper cap, the area might as well be at the upper cap to start with. If I'm any lower, then the enemies are guaranteed to level-match me where they'd outclass my skills.

Level locking alleviates this a little, but it still guarantees I won't be able to handle any area I initially discover unless I'm already over its upper cap (which is less likely than being over its lower cap).


I'm all for easy, middle, and tough areas, FWIW. I just don't prefer the difficulty to depend on my character level since it's a very poor measure of player skill. In other words, just because I'm high level doesn't mean I play well... it just means I play a lot. Especially when you can level up due to non-combat skills, character level shouldn't be used to determine your combat prowess.

As Pseron Ward pointed out, there are levelled and scaled aspects, and most people here seem to be confusing them.

Levelled content means that the creature, bandit, or item that spawns is based on your level. For instance, at low level a Rat might appear, at mid level a Bear might spawn, and at high level you might encounter a Daedroth. This can either be done so that the higher level spawns supplement the low level ones, or replace them. Levelled loot means that you don't find "great" items at low level, yet such items may be commonly found at high level.

Scaled content actually changes its stats to suit your level. A "scaled" goblin may have absurd amounts of hitpoints at hight level, yet can be killed with a couple jabs of a rusty dagger at low level. Scaled items have better stats at high levels than at low.

Morrowind used levelled content extensively in outdoor and "creature" spawn points, along with a lot of "static" (or unlevelled) content and NPCs. Most spawn lists added the higher-level creatures to the list without removing the old ones, so you could still find the occasional Rat or Kwama Forager, even at high levels. Morrowind might have benefitted from a few more interior levelled spawns, to maintain the degree of challenge for high-level characters a bit longer in at least a few more locations. Oblivion relied heavily on both levelling and scaling, and most lists replaced the original creatures with the higher-level ones, making the original creatures go extinct as your level increased. Oblivion also introduced scaled rewards, so if you got them at low level, they were weak, and worse: you forever lost the chance to get the "good" version.

Some levelling appears to be essential in games to keep the degree of challenge managable at low level and sufficient at higher level. Excessive levelling removes the incentive to improve. Scaling might also be a useful tool if done in specific and limited cases, but the blatant and massive use of it in OB became annoying, and simply made the game more tedious as it went, rather than challenging. The problems with using static placement may be overcome by careful placement of both levelled and static enemies to prevent their too-early acquisition by starting characters.

Both of the above are level scaling. It doesn't matter if a goblin "transforms" into a high-stat troll or just becomes a high-stat goblin. They are equally mechanics to render leveling pointless and have the same effect on gameplay.

I understand this literally, but I still don't understand the reasoning of it. We live in an open world now, and there are places I wouldn't walk in my own city (for being not ready for the kind of fight I'd find there). IMO the same should exist in the game; My understanding of "Open World" was that nothing prohibits you from venturing to a place ~not that you are guaranteed to make the trip unharmed, or even survive your first encounter there.

Ah... I was under the [mistaken?] impression that you did more damage with a weapon for having higher skill, and possibly that the NPC's hit more accurately or frequently for it as well.

Does it really just boil down to equipment?
Does a 5th level PC with a good sword & shield easily defeat two (or three) 5th level NPC's with weaker equipment?

Because it kills the point of leveling up in the first place. Why should you get stronger if you don't get stronger at all? Some people used this knowledge and never slept with their character to remain at lvl 1 when everything is at its weakest relative to you. Anything that intices THAT is a very big no-no in an RPG. That's why people are pissed.