Can someone please explain to me what level scaling is, and why it pisses so many people off?

Level scaling is a system where all loot and creatures are handled by a level list. Depending on what level you have, different things show up and creatures levels scale to your own.

In Oblivion, this meant that if you got up to a high level you would start seeing bandits clad in the most expensive armour. Whatever level you gained, easy foes would scale to yours and be as hard as when you first met them at level 1.

why does that piss people off? seems pretty fair to me.

When some spawn in the world - e.g. monster, item, trap - is determined by your level, that's level scaling.

For example if trolls only show up when I'm level 6 or more, that's level scaling

If trolls only show up when I'm in Swamp Zone, that's not level scaling.

If trolls only show up on day 10 or later, that's not level scaling.

If trolls only show up after I've done the third part of the main quest, that's not level scaling.


The reason level scaling pisses people off is it removes the incentive to level. If bandit x is going to be exactly my level whether I'm level 1 or 10, that means:

-There's no reason to level up
-There will never be a point where the bandit is very easy or very hard
-Every area you visit will have exactly the same difficulty

It caused a number of issues, like bandits eventually having very expensive armor and weapon just because you do, and still ask for 100 gold during the robbery.

Also, if you level up by using non-combat skills like speechcraft, you're screwed as the enemies level up the same but with their combat skills.

Basically, it broke the ingame immersion for many. That said, level scaling is a must for an open game like this, it's just that Oblivion took it to the extreme.

because as you got to a higher level the game got harder. it defeats the purpose of leveling up, and it ruins the fun of finding rare loot and being able to go into a cave, get owned, come back at a higher level, and destroy whatever owned you. it pretty much takes the rpg out of the rpg.

to an true rpg fanatic, level scaling is satan.

Because it presents no challenge, is boring, and just plain silly (in Oblivion, at least). It's not more difficult, all it means is that the enemy has more health, so you just stand there and click/press A/whatever for a longer period of time. It's obviously boring because of the lack of challenge, and it's silly because bandits (ya'know, people who are supposed to be relatively destitute and must steal to survive) would somehow have the best armor and weapons in the world, and because low-level creatures like rats would literally disappear at higher levels.

The idea itself isn't bad. In fact, some sort of level scaling was present in Morrowind too and people didn't complain about that. It was just overdone in Oblivion. Simple bandits would end up walking around in super expensive glass armor once you reached level 20 or so, and some creature types just disappeared completely once your level got too high. Dungeons never had any unique loot in them, and woul never be too dangerous, because everything was made equal to you.

In Morrowind you could walk into a vampire lair at level 1 and get your ass kicked. Or you could find a good piece of equipment even at a low level if you managed to survive. I don't think there's any way to get your hands on glass armor for example in Oblivion until you reach a high enough level and it suddenly starts popping up everywhere.

If you play Oblivion and get stopped by a bandit trying to rob you while wearing Daedric Armor and a Daedric Claymore you would understand why it annoys some people, sometimes it just didn't make sense for people that are dirt poor and trying to rob you to be wearing the most expensive armor in the game. I don't really have a problem with some amount of level scaling, but in Oblivion it went a little too far. Fortunately this level scaling wasn't as prevalent in fallout 3.

i personally think that under NO circumstance should a generic bandit have super amazing armor. thats one of the main things that got me.
i liked in morrowind how glass was available from the beginning, but if you didn't know what you were doing you would be either killed or end up with a huge bounty. and there was NO way you could pay for it if you were level 3 lets face it. it encouraged you to level up more first and then get glass armor.

Fallout 3 level scaling is better. Bandits (Raiders) will always have rifles, knifes, leather armour. Thats what they should have. They dont suddenly have plasma rifles and power armour.

Oblivion, bandits suddenly have Deadric armour and glass hammers as soon as you do.

The reason this is bad is while it presents a challenge still, you lose the will to gain that rare armour because as soon as you get your hands on some, its everywhere. Also when you have experienced the caves, and Daedra and guilds and learnt so much you should feel powerful, but you don't because everything else is scaled.

Also it was done one for one across the board with no to very little deviation in foes.
With the loot actually being quite limited and tiered as well everything was just becoming very samey.
Then you had the effect on the magic system which itself was leveled.. but to a far lesser extant than those npc's you faced.
Meaning that if you kept on leveling you ended up either loosing the use of most of your spells or just used the exact same ones again and again.

Fact is it's not level scaling in of its self that is bad.. as it can provide a challenge if done well.
What most have against it is that in Oblivion it was copy pasted and gave the impression that thought had not gone into how it was implemented at all.

The only problem for me was that (in Fallout, where there was less level scaling) at high levels there was nobody who could stand up to me, and the game became boring. I'd rather have a challenging opponent than the same raider with a butterknife charging at me while I have full Tesla armor and plasma rifles.

The game ends with the player character being a god amoung men. You have conquered the threat to Tamriel and have risen to the top rank in many, if not all, of the available factions.

However, when confronted by two or more highwaymen you are quite likely to die. Level-scaling takes away any sense of accomplishment from your adventures and puts you on par with your basic town guard.

It leads to wierd scenerios where a handful of town guards are being completely overwhelmed by a few scamps and must rely on you to save them from these daedra beasts but as soon as you attempt to pick-pocket one of them you are slain before you can even get your hand out of your attackers pocket.

If level-scaling in Skyrim is as prevalent as it was in Oblivion I for one am going to let one of the random NPC's save the day since they are clearly just as adept at handling apocolyptic events as I am. They just like to whine more.

Because why the hell should you level up your character and build your stats if none of it matters anyway?
It ruins immersion and it gives no feel of danger OR progression. Why bother exploring the world if you know the game isn't going to even let you see certain armor or creatures until you "level up".

I just hope they use the method that seems the most realistic.

Fallout 3's style of level scaling was handled a lot better than oblvion's was. There will still be those places that are out of a players reach until they're a higher level, but there will be other places that scale up with the player to make things still a little hard at higher levels.

Level Scaling isn't bad but it was way overdone in Oblivion. I'm glad it's getting scaled back a bit in Skyrim but I hope there's some form of Level Scaling for certain weapons, armor, and some enemies. I mean I don't want to find a Daedric Long Sword at Level 1 five minutes outside of the starting area.

It would be nice if there were more hand placed, level independant items as well.

Maybe they should just.. idk, give the option to disable it?

it goes like this no matter how good of armor or weapons or skills you possess you will still likely get your [censored] handed to you by a bear or a mountain lion and peoples armor and weapons become different meaning after a while you will begin to see daedric weapons and armors everywhere especcially on bandits and highwaymen

In New Vegas there did not seem to be level scaling and I liked it like that.

If you went to where Deathclaws lived yuo found Deathclaws, if you went around Goodsprings it was Coyotes and Scorps. It was kind of based on environment it seemed to me, but really more like area.

If it was done this way in Skyrim I would much prefer that. If creatures appeared in their environments or in their areas it would be better. Specifically because teh world is big and there are lots different ecozones (I would expect much like Oblivion) and lots of different uniques places.

ah but there was scaling in new vegas it was just done in a very non invasive way

IMO Obsidian went too far in the wrong direction with level scaling...or more accurately, a lack of it. Level scaling itself isn't the problem, it's what is done with it. Oblivion went overboard with the level scaling, Obsidian went overboard in the opposite direction with it. I liked the way it was handled in FO3 though.

Oblivion was a great game ruined by excessive level scaling. I could never bring myself to finish Oblivion, it just got boring.

Morrowind was the best game I ever played. If Morrowind had level scaling, it was so subtle I never noticed it.

I have said this before and apologize for repeating myself, but I feel this is the single most important potential problem with Skyrim. I will not buy the game until I know for a fact that level scaling is not a problem, either by being built right in the first place, or being modded into a Morrowind type subtle scaling.

The early game rush of wandering into the wrong cave or dungeon, getting in way over my head, and having it removed with prejudice. That feeling is essential.