Why wait?

My orc butchered so many of their sorry hides they put a hit out on me.

Needless to say, Northwatch Keep (a dungeon FILLED with Thalmor), is a crater.

I'm not saying that Ulfric is a good guy or that he's in the right. I'm just saying that no matter how you look at it, unless you're an Altmer, the Thalmor are the real enemy here. In the end, if Skyrim becomes a similar crazy state, not much would change. There are few non-humans in Skyrim as it is, and I'm sure many of the other races would already have fled by the time Ulfric gets organized if he wins the civil war. The empire can certainly fix a single province much more easily than it can the entire Aldmeri Dominion.

No matter what Ulfric would do, he can't reach the level of evil currently inhabited by the Thalmor. Whatever he'd do, the Thalmor are already doing on a much wider scale and to a greater degree.

What? I didn't realize that. KKK, are you sure? Because they seemed more concerned with dealing with heretics, and my anti-religion and pro-poison character helped them. Sort of like helping Mary I of England perform the Marian Persecutions. Then again, if the Thalmar are that bad, then why side against them?

It’s one thing to totally destroy a mob of them and leave them in awkward positions, it’s another thing to actually have a story where I destroy everything they stand for…. Then leave them in awkward positions.

You don't allways have to outright kill a people to be 'just as bad'. Sure he welcomed them in but they life inthe slums, all the fith of the city flows into the grey quarter. They are treated like spies and lesser beings...no even less than that.

He won't lift a finger to help them, if bandits attack them on the road.

He's showing his power, and superiority by making an example of them.

If Ulfric became high king, and had even more power...what would be the next logical set for him?

You’re not getting the point here, I totally agree with you on he doesn’t treat them on the same level as a Nord, what I’m trying to say is he is no way in any shape or form as bad as the Thalmor. They wouldn’t have them in the city in the first place. Maybe decorating the pikes on the outside of their walls, but defiantly not living in the city with them.

Where else would they live in Windhelm? Last I checked, every other house is occupied. Not to mention they're refugees, and they themselves showed EXTREME racism to Argonians for CENTURIES, enslaving them and punishing them.

Now they get torn apart by the Argonians, and Red Mountain erupts, so they're forced to flee, and are in the same position as the Argonians. They're lucky karma even let them live, but they get houses in a city, and jobs that they get paid to perform.

The Stormcloaks may not be ENTIRELY right, I'm not trying to argue that, but they have a reasonable demand. The Thalmor are dragging them from their homes and butchering them for worshiping someone else. Worse still, they think they're better than them because of that, and MAY even butcher their own kind.

Look at it any way you want, but the Thalmor are evil. Now, if only the Stormcloaks say that and helped the Empire overthrow them. Or, better yet, kill the dragons first.

I do get what your saying...and yes to a degree he's not 'as bad' as the Thalmor.

However that being said, would Skrim really be better off being ruled by a power mad oppressor?

That would be just the opportunity that the Thalmore need to strike. Then everyone is in trouble.

You seem to be missing the point. Noone's saying Ulfric is good or that he wouldn't be a homicidal maniac given the chance. What we're saying is that he cannot possibly reach the level the Thalmor are on. At most, Ulfric could eventually purge all of Skyrim of any non-humans that stayed after he rose to power. The Thalmor already have done essentially that in all of their territory. Racial purges are mentioned several times, and not even elves are spared. By all accounts, a great many Bosmer have been slaughtered alongside the human and beast races within the Dominion to suit whatever agenda the Thalmor have. It's basically a eugenics program.

To side with the Thalmor you'd need to be an Altmer or a fool. Altmer may have a chance at gaining from such a relationship, but anyone else would just be the laughing stock of the Thalmor, doing their bidding while they secretly plot the manner of your death. The Altmer are just as religions as anyone else, if not more so, they just don't believe in Talos. An anti-religion character has little reason to side with the Thalmor.

This! :thumbsup:

I actually side with the Empire, and not the Thalmore.

However I guess I'm a bit biased with the Dunnmer because I've played a Dunnmer from ES3 onward.

Morrwind is destroyed...and Windhelm was a bit hard to take.

I too am a big Dunmer fan, but even I have to admit that they're almost getting what they deserve. As much as I love the Dunmer, they did do some pretty terrible things to other races themselves. That said, what's going on in Windhelm is bad, but not as bad as a lot of people are making it out to be. They are essentially just refugees, fleeing to a proud land with little room for outsiders. It doesn't help that a lot of them really don't bring anything to the communities they join.

I'm torn between the Empire and Stormcloaks at the moment. I'm a big fan of the Empire and I tend to lean towards them, but I can't help but wonder if a free Skyrim would be better at combatting the Thalmor, as Hammerfell was. Under Ulfric, this seems unlikely. However, if the Stormcloak movement were to experience a sudden change in leadership...

EDIT: We're getting pretty far off topic. To be brief, since Ogmund is now in the hands of the Thalmor, I'd say it's safe to assume that the absolute worst possible is happening to him. That, or he was simply butchered.

It would be better off but not by much. Here's the question, would it be better under the rule of an oppressive, racist government that KILLS people who don't share their ideals, or an oppressive, racist government that gives the people that aren't Nords the tiniest end of the stick possible.

One word: Argonians.

Karma came to the Dunmer, and slapped them on the wrist. Now they're the biggest tragedy story ever, while the Argonians are celebrating their liberation from centuries, or longer, of slavery.

You can’t compare Ulfric to the Thalmor like that. Ulfric is now way near as oppressive as the Thalmor.

I think it would be more along the lines of

A) Do you want to live under someone who will have little interest of your life due to the fact your different.
B.) Live under the rule of an organization of people who are willing to kill for even the tiniest of infractions, JUST to make you an example.

Wasn't slavery ended in Morrwind during the Oblvion timeline? Then Skyrim begins 200 years after that?

Eeep sorry OP..... :cake:

The Dunmer were driven out about 200 years ago, when the Argonians rebelled, I believe.

Despite when it ended, it was still slavery on an entire race for CENTURIES. The dark elves are now refugees living in a walled city, with houses and paying jobs, and everybody is turning the waterworks on for them.

Well, to be fair, the Talmor are not evil not as such.

You have to understand their motives.
They need to stop man believing in Talos so they can erase man from time.
That is, they desire to erase man from the mythic, the pattern of posibility, so that no echo of a memory remains through which the idea of man can return.

Talos is a spoke in the Wheel that fortifies the Convention of Creation.

The Thalmor do not want to erase man because they hate them, they could care less. They desire to return to a time before creation bound their souls to this plane(t)
Talos who is Lorkhan has by his ascension recreated the story of creation and thereby made creation stronger. It is an affirmation, a cosmic 'yes'.
He has fortified the Wheel, the Mundus, the mortal plane(t).

The Thalmor desire to 'uncoil the dragon', that is to stop linear time, return to the infinite possibilities of the interplay of Anu and Padomay. They want to reach heaven by refuting it.

Karma doesn't need to happen instantly. It still happened and it will always have happened. Just because it was ended doesn't mean everything before then was suddenly erased from history.

To be fair, I've seen little evidence that Ulfric hates or even cares about the Dunmer refugees. He doesn't seem to be direclty making their lives difficult. In fact, I'm surprised he took them in at all. I'm sure many other cities would have outright refused entry to a bunch of Dunmer refugees. Ulfric is certainly not the best of people, but he's not as monstrous as people portray him to be. I've played this game a lot, and completed both civil war storylines. Ulfric is selfish, egotistical and moderately racist. He has good traits as well though. I like to consider the Imperial ending canon, at least for now, but Ulfric has come to be one of my favorite characters simply because he feels real. Real people are flawed. It would be great if they weren't, but they are. I think Ulfric believes he is doing what is best for his land and his people. I don't agree with the policies he thinks will achieve what's best, but I do respect that he does what he believes is right.

Interesting.
Does karma have a place in the universe of TES?
I always saw it as deterministic, but karma can be pre-ordained as well.

Someone has studied the dictionary a couple times in they’re life.
But you just contradicted yourself with that statement didn’t you? How are they not evil, yet they’re trying to erase someones beliefs which will result in erasing said people?

and by

"That is, they desire to erase man from the mythic"

Do you mean Mythos?

Ok perhaps...hmm...but I wonder.

Would people feel the same way if this was one of the human races?

To the Thalmor, what they're doing isn't evil, just necessary for their race to reach what they perceive as "heaven". The fact that they have to erase several races to do so is inconsequential to them.

However, to the rest of the world, they certainly are evil because of this. Afterall, humans aren't going to willingly cease to exist for benefit of the Altmer race. What the Thalmor are really doing is selfish more than evil, but it certainly seems evil to the rest of the races and it directly adversely effects them. As such, they must fight.

Depends. I don't think any of the human races enslaved another race, based solely on their race, for centuries.

So, no, I'd be a bit more sympathetic.