One thing to learn about threads here, is that any topic is an opportunity to delve into things that are related to it. Also, understanding Numidium is directly related to what happened to the Dwemer, and so is understanding what they wanted to achieve.

http://www.imperial-library.info/interviews/skelm.shtml

The first to see him was the Shop Foremer, Kagrenac of Vvardenfell, the wisest of the tonal architects [Mechanists - MN] Do not think as others do that Kagrenac created the Anumidum for petty motivations, such as a refutation of the gods. Kagrenac was devoted to his people, and the Dwarves, despite what you may have read, were a pious lot-he would not have sacrificed so many of their golden souls to create Anumidum's metal body if it were all in the name of grand theater. Kagrenac had even built the tools needed to construct a Mantella, the Crux of Transcendence. But, by then, and for a long time coming, the Doom of the Dwarves marched upon the Mountain and they were removed from this world.

http://www.imperial-library.info/tsomw/mw_18.shtml

I have no idea what happened to the Dwemer. I have no sense of them in the timeless divine world outside of mortal time. And, in fact, if I did believe they existed*, I would be in no hurry to make contact with them. They may, with some justice, hold the Dunmer race responsible for their fate. My intuition is that they are gone forever -- and that is perfectly fine with me."

*Implying he doesn't believe they exist.

Emphases all mine, of course.

Anyways, the Dwemer [!]ed out of existence. The question is whether that was their intention.

Okay then...

Paw prints basically answered the question before me anyway. He went into more detail.
Basically I pretty much 100% agree with him.
No Dumbkid, it wasn't intentional. Why the heck would it be?

This is why none of the other races understand the Dwemer.

This is also why people have such a hard time understanding what Nirvana* originally meant (and still means to some), and they call it "inner peace" and "enlightenment" and stuff like that.

*The snuffing out of existence.

Sounds interesting... but I'll stick with the giant 'god' theory for now. :wave:

Numidium is a lot of trouble to go through for zero-sum, and the symbolism doesn't line up. I think the Dwemer can be both gone and make up the substance of a dead god-walker.



I don't see much of a difference between refuting a god and refuting oneself. Both entail rejecting the trap and collaborative divinity of the Mundus.

You think there's an easy way for an entire race to zero sum at the same time?

And if the Dwemer can be both gone and make up the substance of Anumdium, then the question still stands as to whether the "gone" part was intentional. Also, it seems evident (the way I take it, at least) that Anumidium was functionally capable before Kagrenac "turned it on" (or else he couldn't have), meaning it was working before the Dwemer were a part of it, meaning et cetera. Anyways, the Dwemer did join with it, in a sense: sort of like you'd "join with" the bus. (Only their destination wasn't exactly across town.)

And are you really saying all atheists deny their own existence?

No, they weren't doing something petty like refuting the gods, Kagrenac's goals were much bigger. Understand that there are belief systems in our world which include the idea that "gods" are really just beings that are slightly more powerful than us, but are ultimately limited by the same rules we are. Consequently, they're not worth refuting.

Since I have read this thread, I agree that the dwemer was SUPPOSED to make a titan or a god, and needed to sacrifice ALL OF THEM to summon such a thing but failed. Hey! will that mean that Yagrum is THE REASON that they failed? Since that ALL of the dwemer's souls were needed, could that mean that if Yagrum was on the mortal plane, and disappered with them, they would have succeded???

Think about it, maybe Vivec Almalexia and Sotha Sil, have some how taken Yagrum (or bribe him) to go to another realm so that the dwemer would fail!!!

Baladas talks about how the Dwemer researched the process of God -> Mortals and that the Dwemer were seeking to reverse it, Mortals -> Brass God. Now losing your body as a mortal seems somewhat as prerequisite for being part of a God. This is however not the same as whisking out of existence in zero sum.

So it would appear to me that the Dwemer did not just get on the bus, they are the bus.



I never thought about that. Could be.

I commend to you this quote from the Nu-Mantia Intercept

Numidium/WalkBrass is/was Sithitic in nature - according to the mer description. Kagrenac must have known this


Reading into Vivec's words quoted previously

Vivec says he has no idea

I have no sense of them in the timeless divine world outside of mortal time.
Vivec says he cannot sense them outside of mortal time. Vivec does not say he cannot sense them inside mortal time. It is always possible that Vivec's senses are inadequate to sense them - whether because they are hiding from him or for other reasons

And, in fact, if I did believe they existed, I would be in no hurry to make contact with them.
Vivec states that he believes they did not exist in the past and that he does not want to contact them

They may, with some justice, hold the Dunmer race responsible for their fate. My intuition is that they are gone forever -- and that is perfectly fine with me."
Vivec fears possible retribution from the Dwemer - so why would he want to lead anyone to them?

Vivec was is and always will be a liar


What about the Dwemer Specters? nothing so far seems to explain why they did not disappear also.

Well... yes, I agree. After all, isn?t that the way the et?ada became Aedra? Sacrificing themselves to become the bones of the earth?

I think that the dwemer follow the same principle as many of our world philosophical and religious concepts: the body and everything physical are just the shackles of spiritual transcendence.

I don?t think they we?re trying to become a GOD exactly, just reverse creation as it has been stated so many times in this thread. Return to the first brush, maybe?

The first brush was when one first became two (which became four, which became millions.) The Dwemer made one out of millions. The Numidium didn't have golden skin so much as it was a skin for the Dwemer to wear and become greater, at the cost of their individuality.

One part that still puzzles me is the line "it was meant to be used by our people many times to transcend the Grey maybe..."

Does that imply that becoming Numidium, or the skin of Numidium or whatever, was just the first of a series of leaps in order to.... transcend?

What about the Dwemer Specters? nothing so far seems to explain why they did not disappear also.

Here's something Prowler said, that may be of relevance.

Ghosts can return out of their free will if they have something that binds them, but often you'll see that they've already started to disintegrate and are starting to lose their memories and thoughts while they're being mangled and stripped from their identity in the dreamsleeve.

Perhaps it was their connection to the dream-sleeve that stopped them from disappearing?

~Lost

Never thought of it that way- sounds plausible. I always envisioned the Dwemer lining up to use, when in reality they all disappeared at once.


And the specters make it clear that only living Dwemer were affected. Death must have been a horrible prospect for the Dwarves.

Where is that line from? I can't find it at TIL.

http://www.imperial-library.info/interviews/skelm.shtml

Xal, a Human Maruhkati, Port Telvanis:
Ah. I will tell you the truth, because you will believe none of it. The Brass God is Anumidum, the Prime Gestalt. He is also called the divine skin. He was meant to be used many times by our kind to transcend the Gray Maybe.

Keep in mind that Xal is not a Dwemer. So "our kind" here doesn't mean Dwemer.

He must mean mortals, then. I don't think the Marukhati were Abnegators.

Then perhaps Dumbkid's highlighted phrase he quoted earlier has meaning here
This does imply that this thing was done to them rather than that the Dwemer all sought to take part.

Bearing in mind that Dumac himself wished for peace with the Dunmer as did Nerevar - but that Kagrenac forced war upon them according to the Morrowind accounts and others. There appear to numerous folks that hold the Dwemer all sought to enter Numidium (but where is that written and why?) ... though I can accept they may have all had a deep wish to stay together as theirs appears to have been a socially conservative and closely integrated society.

So who wanted war? The murderers of the Tribunal?

What I still do not like about this is the inference that the Dwemer would have followed Kagrenac - a renegade scientist rather than the wishes of their King, Dumac - no one seems to have adressed that yet - so it may be that there is more to the tale than we have discovered so far.

So couldn't he just be referring to how it was used many times to try and transcend (ie, the Dwemer, a few of the endings in Daggerfall, etc)?

It's a weird line. Kagrenac certainly did not mean for Numidium to be used for the purposes of (rather profane) apotheosis.

One might wonder how Kagrenac might have known of the events of those Dragon Breaks before they happened anyways.

If the hole point of Nirn is to act as a workshop for mortals to try and go beyond the barriers of the world, then what was so wrong about the Dwemer trying to reverse creation?

Granted, it was kind of an unorthodox way to do it. But why look at it with suspicion?

I mean, the only other method we have encountered to do it would be enantiomorph, wich is performed by highly selfish people trying to reach apotheosis. This people sought to become Gods, objetcs of worship and power. The Dwemer just wanted to stop the hole subdivision process and be left alone.

Actually, we have the Letter from the 4th, and it talks to us about Love and all that... wich would make another way to transcend.

Am I making any sense???

Refreshingly sympathetic to the Dwemer in human terms and a great take on the possible motivations of the people using the different methods, but you're still ignoring the struggle between Kagrenac and King Dumac - and indeed was it 'the Dwemer people' or a renegade 'scientist' called Kagrenac (I believe he is sometimes referred to as their high priest though the Dwemer never seem to see him in that role) who wanted anything.

You?re right I completely forgot about that as I was writing the post, and don?t know how to incorporate that into my idea. I guess I have some homework to do.

I have always associated the Kagrenac?s role as High Priest as the Dwemer main scientist.

Dumac and Kagrenac disagreed, but there had to be a bulk of the Dwemer who were following Kagrenac.