That is a manish world view, the Elves don't agree with it. They [their ancestors] were already in their prime, but became weaker by the creation of the world. As such they wish to return to the way it was before Mundus was created.

Why?

The bulk of the Dwemer certainly appears to have been affected by Kagrenac's actions - but I refer you to Bagrum Yagrum's (or is it Yagrum Bagrum's) comments to the Nerevarine when he states that Kagrenac's doings were far beyond his, Bagrum's, poor talents. So who would have understood what Kagrenac was really up to?

Also I seem to remember reading that Kagrenac kept his activities secret from his fellow Dwemer and that the Tribunal (as they came to be known) and Nerevar do not clearly explain how they learned about Kagrenac's doings.

Thus in one account it appears that the Elder Council or the Emperor (maybe the Moth Priests read about it in the scrolls?) discovered the goings on and decided to invade - and then Nerevar (it is not clear how he found out) went to Dumac his friend to ask him what was going on (because the Imperials and his fellow Dunmer were all hot for war) and Dumac was astonished and denied it. Then Dumac went to find out for himself and discovered that Kagrenac had barricaded himself in his laboratories ...

I would also refer you to the account of Xal, described as a Human Maruhkati in Port Telvanis - you will find that here http://www.imperial-library.info/interviews/skelm.shtml It does add a timeline to and connects various events concerning the Brass God/s

This.

Consider the version of the disappearence of the Dwemer as laid out in http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/nerevar_redmountain.shtml. According to this, the Dwemer worshipped "a profane and secret power", which could be the Heart of Lorkhan. However, they were not terribly interested in doing anything with it. Dumac was unaware of Kagrenac's plan to make a "New God", and he went to war with Nerevar over a perceived threat to Dwemer culture.

Also, according to Nerevar at Red Mountain, the Dwemer disappeared only after Dagoth Ur, under orders from Azura, "separate[d] the power of the Heart from the Dwemer people."

Of course, Nerevar at Red Mountain comes from an eyewitness account that was passed through several generations of Ashlander verbal tradition before getting written down by the Dissident Priests (or whomever) and becoming part of the Apographa. As a few people have said, it is likely that Kagrenac was not literally a "high priest" but a head scientist/engineer. (Kagrenac has been called a"tonal architect" elsewhere, which seems to refer to Kagrenac's mastery of some kind of divine magic based on vibrations.) Likewise, the "profane and secret power" that the Dwemer supposedly worshipped may not have been the Heart of Lorkhan, per se, but rather an empirical tradition as opposed to Chimer Daedra worship.

Even making allowances for slight distortions of the story due to the Ashlander's own unique cultural perspective, this story suggests a few interesting facts...

First, Dumac was not aware of Kagrenac's plans to tamper with the Heart of Lorkhan (whatever Kagrenac's goals may have been). If Dumac, the King, didn't know about this, then it is unlikely that Kagrenac had a significant following. I see Kagrenac as more of a "mad scientist" figure. (Not to imply that he was insane, but rather foolish for messing with magic that was way over his head.)

Second, Kagrenac bound the souls of his people to the Heart of Lorkhan. Azura told Nerevar how to disrupt this process, and he told Dagoth Ur. After Dagoth undid Kagrenac's binding, the Dwemer disappeared. Thus, the Dwemer cannot be thought to have succeeded. After all, Azura would not have told Nerevar how to finish what Kagrenac started, but rather, how to undo it.

OK, then what?s the difference?

The elves try to get back to the way things were before the creation of Mundus and men just aim at becoming gods?

I thought that elven hatred for the mortal world was just from an Aldmer concept...

More accurately described as the Velothi view.

Aldmer -> Going back.
Man -> Going beyond.

I wouldn't describe either as becoming gods as one side already thinks they are and the other tries talks about a gods plan to create something beyond that goes beyond the gods.

Another, less ideological way to look at it would be by considering Anuiel the force that divides, light and dark orderly separated. While Sithis is the force that combines, mixing light and dark into a grey and uncertain maybe. The Aurbis slides back and forth between the two.

At the start it was chaotic but as an agent of Anuiel, Auriel found a way to last, to strengthen individuality and the divide between Anu and Padomay. As an agent of Sithis Lorkhan sought to undo this. However he could not bear to lose his individuality so he tried for a way that would allow one to retain his identity while being indiscernible from anything else.

He wants to have his cake and eat it.

All praise to themilkman! It's been so long and I must admit that I had linked memories of Vivec's scrolls into my memories of the Apogrypha - well I find these much clearer - andthey show a very different tale from th eone that Vivec would have us believe.







Puts a totally different spin ion things eh?

So the Dwemer fell to dust when their link to the Heart was severed - and Vivec knew of this - so Vivec (not knowing what Azura had already taught Dagoth Ur about the Heart and Tools) used the tools and having seen what happened to the Dwemer took precautions and began using his God-gifts to raise his awareness in such a way that he might achieve Chim, whiloe Sotha-sil tried to link himself into machines to sustain himself. But Almalexia was more a warrior than a poet or a scientist, so how could she stave off the fate of th eDwemer - it appears she chose avenues profane.

The same lie, imo.

Great, Thanks for the entire post, it cleared some things up for me.

Based on this, the dwemer incident (wether it was intentional or not), if they sought the reverse creation they were not being blasphemous, right? They were just trying to get back... Does it make sense?

Blasphemous against who? I don't think Lorkhan would have been too displeased at that particular use of his heart, according to Vehk at least.

THANK YOU, that?s where I was going.

I just wasn?t that confident on the idea I had

If we're going to discuss what uses of his heart Lorkhan would consent to, it would be useful if everyone understands what http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sunder and http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/keeningmean.

Look at the macro-micro-cosmic slide. The size of intelligent/cultured beings has diminished. At the time of writing of the Monomyth the 'smallest or lest' lot were men according to one view and now we have Pellinal who according to MK was/is a collective of micro beings of some kind from the future ...

So Pellinal is shaped like Numidium but walks like Shezzar-Akatosh, or am I way off base there?

Never met it/him - but who knows what will be in TES V?

There again it appears his hand shoots laser bolts.

How in the world is understanding the Dwemeri names for their Tools going to help anybody understand Lorkhan's desires??? It's not like Lorkhan named them 'Sunder' and 'Keening', so really, the only thing understanding their meanings is going to help you discuss is what the Dwemer where thinking, not Lorkhan...

What if the Tools are named after what they do to Lorkhan (or at least his Heart)?

I'm trying to caution against imagining that Lorkhan is somehow unfazed by use of the Tools.

I guess that depends on whether or not you think Lorkhan is really dead.

If he is completely and entirely dead, then his heart is just a source of residual divine power. Like how a recently killed corpse remains warm for a little while. Lorkhan being a god, though, we're left with a bit more than warmth. Like a corpse, people are going to differ on what they would like done with it. Is Lorkhan the type to check the organ donor box? At any rate, whether we honor his wishes or not, if he is dead, then he isn't going to care what is done with his bodyparts one way or another.

But maybe Lorkhan isn't dead, just imprisoned (either in the Heart or elsewhere in/on/around Nirn). In that case, he probably has some pretty intense beliefs about what he wants done with his bodyparts... you know... since he's still alive. Lorkhan created Mundus and then got smacked around by the divines, so it's reasonable to assume that he would like the mortals to have its power, especially because that seems to upset the Daedra. Then again, maybe a benevolent Lorkhan would still want to keep it out of the hands of the mortals so they don't destroy themselves with it like the Dwemer. On the other hand, if the Aldmeri creation myth is accurate, and Lorkhan is an embodiment of Sithic limitation, then he wouldn't want the mortals to have it, because he would want them to be as limited as possible.

Personally, I think that Lorkhan is dead. Dead dead. Our decision about whether to respect his wishes (whatever those may have been) is not going to have any divine retribution, at least not from Lorkhan.

That's deep. Heh - if you want a really, really evil 'what if' try this: Lorkhan built the Mundus for his own purposes and the 'Divines' just followed after without invitation and then messed it up and murdered Lorkhan because they wanted it for themselves - then lied about what happened.

But what exactly would being "dead" mean for Lorkhan?

"If we listen to Vehk..."

Creation itself was an act of bodily mutilation, and Vivec sees his own ascension as part of the legacy of Veloth and the Loving gift of the Scarab.

Shor, on the other hand, did battle with the Dwemer and Tribunes in an attempt to stop them.

Then how do you explain all those aspects of him running around, burning our women, [censored] our churches, knocking stuff over...

But really, there's plenty reason to believe that his consciousnesses is still around and active. He's just abit separated what with his power being stuck beneath Red Mountain for the past four-thousand years and his body stuck up in the sky...

Heh - Vekh ought to be Lord of the Loonies - he can drive a man mad trying to find truth in his lies

And I'm not sure that Vivec sees anything other than his own self-interest.


Maybe the Moons are actually Lorkhan's eyes in the skies ... only one other thing they might be.

But really, if Lorkhan's consciousness survives as it is suggested that of other 'Gods' do during death, and people have been absorbing part of him through the Heart - then likely he is looking out though their eyes. So maybe if Lorkhan returns so too do the Dwemer.

It's been quite a while since I thought much about TES lore, but wasn't the (or a) purpose of tonal architecture to alter/create new mythopoeic patterns (instead of the same old myth-echo Lorkhan, Lorkhan, Lorkhan)? I'm sure somebody at some point has or will get tired of having to (indirectly) walk like Lorkhan to transcend the sub-gradient they belong to. Something about all that doesn't sound like it'd sit well with the egomaniac of egomaniacs. Or maybe I'm rusty and completely off.

I don't know if you're right but it sure sounds like fun!

It does seem that Vivec achieved a new way with CHIMp - where the others that used the Heart sort of fell by the wayside - with a lot of help.

What if the Dwemer were far more successful than Vivec and they not only transcended the local subgradient, but actually marched completely out of the Aurbis. Vivec says that he cannot sense them - in the Mundus. It could be that they went far beyond his range. and they may not return if they don't want to or cannot from wherever they are. but then again they might communicate at some time or other - and who knows they might decide to pull the wraiths and Yagrum Bagrum up with them.